What is your preference, as an instructor?

discuss whatever it is that instructors discuss

Moderators: Kaitou, sxetnrdrmr, billc36, iDrum, Novak, PanasonicYouth


Post new topic  Reply to topic Page 1 of 1 [ 18 posts ]

Section Leader, or not Section Leader?

Section Leader
17
74%
No Section Leader
6
26%
 
Total votes: 23

Message
Author
SnArEdUdE08 Offline
paradiddler
paradiddler
User avatar
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: New York

What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:44 am



Okay so I have taught with about 5 groups, I have encountered sooooooooooo many different perspectives from different groups, and different people; however, one of the hottest topics that I encounter is that of having a section leader. The kids view it as this sense of pride thing, to have that position, yet some find it aimless to appoint someone in such a position. Personally, I am completely against having one because of all the drama it causes, your guys' thoughts?


joe356 Offline
ramming notes
ramming notes
Posts: 639
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 3:53 pm

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:41 am



I think it depends on what you expect the section leader to be responsible for. With the group I work with full time, I make it very clear that I don't need another staff member on the field. Student leaders are not qualified to make corrections, and even if they were, focusing their attention on other individual mistakes on the field takes away attention that they should be paying to their own on field responsibilities. The boosters pays a staff to be the objective eyes on the field, and if I need another pair of eyes, I'll hire another staff member. I find that limits the amount of drama that I run into in regards to the position.

However, there is a lot of that I do ask my section leaders to do. One of the biggest things I involve them in is the recruiting process. They are sort of student ambassadors to the rising 9th graders, to help them assimilate and adjust to high school expectations. Section leaders are expected to set the example at all times in rehearsal. They also often handle a lot of logistical things like truck loading, equipment care, making sure we have everything we need at a show, etc. We have a pretty organized system of mallet care that the front section leader is responsible for.

All of that being said, I can understand why a program would go without a section leader also. It just depends on the kids, the staff teaching style, and the situation.


extrikate Offline
paradiddler
paradiddler
Posts: 145
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:52 am
Location: where the sun shines, the beaches are plenty, and the mice are 6' tall

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:39 am



I agree with Joe356. The most important thing is to define the role and responsibilities of the position. If an organization has leaders in other sections, I believe the battery and front ensemble should be no different. I do not allow section leaders to reprimand or discipline members. Their primary function is to ensure that equipment is stored properly and kept clean. In my absence, they will lead warmups or sectionals. All of the students know what is expected of them but it is still good to have someone as the point.

It is also understood that leadership not a right. If the section leader fails to act in accordance with expectations, they will no longer have the burden of the position.
"If two people agree on everything, then one of them is unnecessary." -Winston Churchill

DCA: 1993-1996, 2012-2014
Pipe Band: 2005-present
Instructor: 1995-present


Kaitou Offline
moderator
moderator
User avatar
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 5:22 pm

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:36 pm



I am firmly for having a section leader. An instructor will not always be around to lead a rehearsal or he/she may be occupied helping elsewhere. In those scenarios there has to be some kind of leadership
TA67 wrote:She walked over to me and said "I formally request that you turn my body into a playground of lust and wonder, o burly man." To which I agreed. I laid her down on the desk, and well...we both got As for the entire semester as a result.
ImageImage


dgaking Offline
ramming notes
ramming notes
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:38 pm



I assign a section leader, but only if I have a student who I trust to do it. If I don't feel I can trust someone with the job, then there is no section leader. I have a leader for the battery and a leader for the pit. Sometimes I assign a leader for a subsection, like the bass line. The duty of the section leader is to run rehearsal when I am not present. We don't have consistent techs, so there has to be someone to keep things organized in sectionals. The section leader's job is to determine what will be played, how many reps, and what feedback the section might need to improve it. They usually also lead the count-offs. If a student disobey's a reasonable request by the section leader, I treat it the same way as if they disobey a staff member. This all helps to maintain a structure at times when students are working without direct staff contact. This system has never caused conflicts to arise (so far). The worst that happens is that some section leaders aren't effective at keeping the entire section on task.


joe356 Offline
ramming notes
ramming notes
Posts: 639
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 3:53 pm

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:47 pm



Kaitou wrote:I am firmly for having a section leader. An instructor will not always be around to lead a rehearsal or he/she may be occupied helping elsewhere. In those scenarios there has to be some kind of leadership

That was kind of my point about it all depending on the situation. My full time group almost never rehearses without a staff member in front of them, so there really is never a need for the section leader to give feedback. In the rare event I need them to warm up without the staff, they know the routine well enough, and they know to just get their reps in.

That works because of the overall attitude of the band. Everyone is expected to handle their own show, and be constantly self adjusting. As a staff, we try to train concepts into the students, rather than isolated parts of show. We spend probably 75% of the early season really drilling the fundamental concepts needed to clean the show, and really breaking those concepts down at the most base level. That way, each student is armed with the knowledge they need to make an adjustment each rep. There is no need for the students to correct each other, and if they are all doing their job, they will be busy diagnosing their own issues between reps.

I'm not naive enough to think that every program has that luxury. We've worked really hard to get the percussion program where we are, and have invested 6 years developing that concept and attitude within the group. I can't think of many programs around that have even had the same staff in one caption for that long. The whole of this year's band staff has been working together for 3 years (some of us longer than that), so we are all on the same page, and there is a lot of trust in the direction of the overall band program. That makes the philosophy behind student leadership pretty uniform, and easy to deal with.

It works well for our program, but there are a lot of ways to do it. I've worked with other programs that didn't budget to have a staff member on hand at all times, and as such, student leadership had to take on a more active role. In that case, you have to be really selective when deciding who the student leaders will be. Sometimes thrusting a student into a leadership role who isn't ready can be even worse than not having a leader at all.

Again, it depends on the situation, staff and students.


Kaitou Offline
moderator
moderator
User avatar
Posts: 1918
Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 5:22 pm

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:32 pm



joe356 wrote:
Kaitou wrote:I am firmly for having a section leader. An instructor will not always be around to lead a rehearsal or he/she may be occupied helping elsewhere. In those scenarios there has to be some kind of leadership

That was kind of my point about it all depending on the situation. My full time group almost never rehearses without a staff member in front of them, so there really is never a need for the section leader to give feedback. In the rare event I need them to warm up without the staff, they know the routine well enough, and they know to just get their reps in.

That works because of the overall attitude of the band. Everyone is expected to handle their own show, and be constantly self adjusting. As a staff, we try to train concepts into the students, rather than isolated parts of show. We spend probably 75% of the early season really drilling the fundamental concepts needed to clean the show, and really breaking those concepts down at the most base level. That way, each student is armed with the knowledge they need to make an adjustment each rep. There is no need for the students to correct each other, and if they are all doing their job, they will be busy diagnosing their own issues between reps.

I'm not naive enough to think that every program has that luxury. We've worked really hard to get the percussion program where we are, and have invested 6 years developing that concept and attitude within the group. I can't think of many programs around that have even had the same staff in one caption for that long. The whole of this year's band staff has been working together for 3 years (some of us longer than that), so we are all on the same page, and there is a lot of trust in the direction of the overall band program. That makes the philosophy behind student leadership pretty uniform, and easy to deal with.

It works well for our program, but there are a lot of ways to do it. I've worked with other programs that didn't budget to have a staff member on hand at all times, and as such, student leadership had to take on a more active role. In that case, you have to be really selective when deciding who the student leaders will be. Sometimes thrusting a student into a leadership role who isn't ready can be even worse than not having a leader at all.

Again, it depends on the situation, staff and students.
We only have the luxury of having one instructor that lives 30 minutes away and works full time as a manager at a retail store. He can only be at summer rehearsals and band camp regularly. Other than that he drops in maybe one class day out of the week when he catches a break that coincides with band and can make it to half of one after school practice. We needed someone to fill in that leadership role. He always managed to be at performances though haha
TA67 wrote:She walked over to me and said "I formally request that you turn my body into a playground of lust and wonder, o burly man." To which I agreed. I laid her down on the desk, and well...we both got As for the entire semester as a result.
ImageImage


NGPercussion Offline
ramming notes
ramming notes
User avatar
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Missouri

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 6:19 pm



I don't think it was needed to have that role filled. It depends on the group, first and foremost, if student leaders work out or not.

For example, in high school, we had an above average drumline that only had a week long camp during the summer, and for the rest of the season through October and sectionals once a week, we were on our own. But, we all got along so well that we knew what to correct and when and how to do it. We were on the same page, in a really good way. It worked out great for us.

However, on my college line, it was so bad that we had three to four know it alls that would want to correct everyone else, and never be wrong. It got to be that nobody was allowed to give criticisms because it always destroyed the rehearsal, and thus, the entire season was a waste.

Bottom line, if your group cannot have a staff member (this can be the percussion tech, or tech for brass, woodwinds, color guard, etc.), you really need to decide on student leadership with only the kids in the particular section in mind. You might have a group of brats, or a group of geniuses.
Percussioning since 2003.


snare20 Offline
paradiddler
paradiddler
Posts: 77
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:39 pm

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:34 pm



I'm not going to read all the posts above me, so sorry if this was already said

For the group I'm with it varies year to year. I let which vets know they can give input. Usually we have some kid from another section or like a transfer student that comes in and acts like he/she runs the place so I don't let that happen. I usually let the students that I trust to do it. (especially if I have to run and do something else for a bit.) So, if a small group maybe one person to run things and help out.

Last year at my school became a little bit of a problem though. A director mistake made it kinda messy. She made an unnecessary amount of kids section leaders.

I made my center snare also the drumline section leader. then I pulled one of our bass drummers aside and one tenor drummer and I told them that they're sub-section leaders meaning If I have to take the snares and we don't have a tech for them, they run things within their tenorline or bassline and I'll go between all three of the sub-sections.

The problem was hornline and guard. Hornline had so many "sections leaders" that they argued a lot and the kids got into arguments about this section leader telling this section leader that wasn't really one in the first place that they were wrong. It got ugly quick.

Guard was all dramatic teenage high school girls with attitudes. There was constant arguing and yelling and people mad at each other, it was just bad. I'm not gonna get into that part.

Bottom line is choose wisely, Instructor there or not should always have a student leader ready to go and help out and ready to lead in case no tech is available.


NGPercussion Offline
ramming notes
ramming notes
User avatar
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Missouri

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:00 am



Yes. ^
Percussioning since 2003.


sxetnrdrmr Offline
moderator
moderator
User avatar
Posts: 2708
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 9:22 pm
Location: chasing the battery around the field

Re:

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:09 am



for about 10 years now, I have run without section leaders, and it has been the best thing. I got rid of assigned leaders for 3 main reasons:
1. it bred laziness - the leaders would work real hard until they got the star by their name, and then they were done. The non-leaders would develop the attitude of "I don't have to do anything unless a leader "gets on my back"
2. it bred BS machines - everyone was tryingt o blow steam up my a$$ during the lead-up to the assignment, and then #1 would happen. I took this personaly
3. it bred drama - and I do not tolerate any kind of drama in the line

After thinking long and hard, I felt like everyone in the line has the same responsibility to everyone else in the line. Elevating one or two people for whatever reason creates a kind of Classism or separation that I feel tears at team unity. I thought " you know, if EVERYONE who is not a rookie has the same amount of ownership-expectation to the program, then everyone will be a leader just by virtue of their involvement. The rookies are told that they have the same expectation and ability to make comments and criticisms about what they see and hear - and that the vets expect them to be a part of that process. The last Friday of full band camp (after 2 months of rehearsals, July and August), they are then told that they have inherited the same expectations as the vets.

The coolest thing about this process/system is that by the end of August, i can sit back and watch the machine run. I can scan the field at anytime and just see people helping, reacting...being PRO-active about situatios etc. We use a system almost EXACTLY like joe356 described, where the kids are taught to fix and clean themselves. We give them the ability to assess and correct without us "babysitting" them. I have not had major drama - that is not dating related - for years.

I also go a couple steps further in that there is no class favoritism either. there are no "Senior Priviledges", or "Freshmen are last in line". We are all just drummers. I think that tears at team unity as well.

I do assign a center snare and tenor, top bass, and center keyboard STRICTLY for musical issues like tap offs, listening in etc. I do put the person with the best technique/sound quality in these positions since they set that interpretation for the rest of the micro-sections. They do not get any outside recognition or special treatment, and anyone can be called to fill in if someone is absent or sick.
Iv'e got sXe!!!!
NAATD!!!!
Up the Antix!!!!

ImageImage

Image

Its' All about the Parking Lot - Watterson Drumline
www.bishopwattersondrumline.webs.com
OSUMB Tenor tech
Pearl
Zildjian
Innovative Percussion
Remo/Evans


NGPercussion Offline
ramming notes
ramming notes
User avatar
Posts: 521
Joined: Fri May 06, 2011 11:46 am
Location: Missouri

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:35 pm



I agree with that. ^
Percussioning since 2003.


SnArEdUdE08 Offline
paradiddler
paradiddler
User avatar
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: New York

Re: Re:

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:49 am



sxetnrdrmr wrote:for about 10 years now, I have run without section leaders, and it has been the best thing. I got rid of assigned leaders for 3 main reasons:
1. it bred laziness - the leaders would work real hard until they got the star by their name, and then they were done. The non-leaders would develop the attitude of "I don't have to do anything unless a leader "gets on my back"
2. it bred BS machines - everyone was tryingt o blow steam up my a$$ during the lead-up to the assignment, and then #1 would happen. I took this personaly
3. it bred drama - and I do not tolerate any kind of drama in the line

After thinking long and hard, I felt like everyone in the line has the same responsibility to everyone else in the line. Elevating one or two people for whatever reason creates a kind of Classism or separation that I feel tears at team unity. I thought " you know, if EVERYONE who is not a rookie has the same amount of ownership-expectation to the program, then everyone will be a leader just by virtue of their involvement. The rookies are told that they have the same expectation and ability to make comments and criticisms about what they see and hear - and that the vets expect them to be a part of that process. The last Friday of full band camp (after 2 months of rehearsals, July and August), they are then told that they have inherited the same expectations as the vets.

The coolest thing about this process/system is that by the end of August, i can sit back and watch the machine run. I can scan the field at anytime and just see people helping, reacting...being PRO-active about situatios etc. We use a system almost EXACTLY like joe356 described, where the kids are taught to fix and clean themselves. We give them the ability to assess and correct without us "babysitting" them. I have not had major drama - that is not dating related - for years.

I also go a couple steps further in that there is no class favoritism either. there are no "Senior Priviledges", or "Freshmen are last in line". We are all just drummers. I think that tears at team unity as well.

I do assign a center snare and tenor, top bass, and center keyboard STRICTLY for musical issues like tap offs, listening in etc. I do put the person with the best technique/sound quality in these positions since they set that interpretation for the rest of the micro-sections. They do not get any outside recognition or special treatment, and anyone can be called to fill in if someone is absent or sick.

I completely agree with that... I tend to place my players in the same positions for the same reasons... I also like to assign all of the students small tasks(i.e. one person makes sure everything is set up on time, another makes sure everyone has equipment, and another will make sure that the met is out there) before rehearsal starts.. this way they all have a task and feel apart of something important, so they have a part in what they do.... If I assign a section leader it usually does cause a lot of drama and all that other aimless nonsense.


tommyservo7 Offline
MAN Chops
MAN Chops
Posts: 3808
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:58 pm
Location: New Jersey/Indiana

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:44 am



After four years in high school drumline, and now in my second year teching, I have never seen legitimate section leader drama. Most years, its pretty obvious who has emerged as a natural leader well before the section leader is announced. There needs to be a student to fall back on not only for rehearsal needs, but also for things like taking care of the band room, keeping order on the bus, loading the truck, etc. Someone needs to coordinate sectionals, do uniform checks, and organize other things.

The only drama I've ever seen from this has originated in parents complaining that their kid didn't get section leader. Its BS.
Last edited by tommyservo7 on Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tom

2007-2011 OBFP
2011-2012 College in Indiana

Multi-pitched timp-tom tenor-scaled membranaphone for life.


SnArEdUdE08 Offline
paradiddler
paradiddler
User avatar
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:00 pm
Location: New York

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:30 pm



The issue I have had is for two of the groups I teach, the kids have not all started together but are close in ability, and maturity... Some have started recently and caught up to the vets and they tend to argue back and forth, it all depends on the people you have


teh_Guardian Offline
MAN Chops
MAN Chops
User avatar
Posts: 3983
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:22 am
Location: xplanetx

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:50 am



Have to develop leaders with the drive to perfection, but are also humble, and willing to help others get there, without just getting angry at people who might be lacking.


Section leader has to be the one everybody can look up to. Pretty much, has to be the coolest.
Here we are, talking band!


sQuiGglyMuFflYWiGS Offline
ramming notes
ramming notes
User avatar
Posts: 441
Joined: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:25 am

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:56 am



How i choose my section leaders. the first time we come together to hit drums i say "who wants to tap?" and turn on the metronome If you have the balls to tap off you might as well be section leader cause thats all it is. tapping off and BALLS!
Norristown Drumline
04-09: Bottom Bass/cymbals
United Percussion
2010-2012: Bass 5, 3, 2
Reading Buccaneers
2010: Bass 3
2013: Bass 1
Carolina Crown
2011: Bass 4
Imperial Dynasty
2013: Bass 3
Teal Sound
BassTech 7/9/2012


swstarks Offline
ramming notes
ramming notes
User avatar
Posts: 531
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 7:10 pm

Re: What is your preference, as an instructor?

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:33 am



Kaitou wrote:I am firmly for having a section leader. An instructor will not always be around to lead a rehearsal or he/she may be occupied helping elsewhere. In those scenarios there has to be some kind of leadership
Same reason why I have one.
http://www.youtube.com/user/spstarks
http://www.facebook.com/#!/steven.starks.96

heem my creem.

"I'm quite fond of the manner in which you address me as your large father."


Post new topic  Reply to topic Page 1 of 1 [ 18 posts ]





Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum