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snarescience.com • Illegal Trading
Page 1 of 7

Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:52 pm
by Tapspace
Hey guys,

At the risk of sounding whiny, it's really disheartening to see so much blatant illegal trading being condoned on here. While it's flattering knowing that people enjoy the music enough to want to share it and collect it, that's other people's livelihoods you're playing with when you give it away or trade it illegally.

It may help to illuminate the situation by letting you guys know that most of us that have been involved in this activity for quite a while, and who contribute to it regularly through music publications, teaching, or writing—small businesses like Tapspace or Row-Loff, or even the DCI or WGI groups themselves—are not multi-million dollar corporations. We’re either individuals or small business operations, or nonprofit enterprises. We do not grow money on trees.

Speaking for myself, and Tapspace, I can tell you that many times we have discussed doing away with our downloadable titles for exactly this reason. We haven't because many people that honestly and legally acquire the material from us really appreciate the convenience and the cheap cost of purchasing music this way.

An option we may have to pursue incorporates Digital Rights Management (DRM) technology to copy-protect the files. This can be very expensive for us, and we'd likely have to raise our prices significantly as a result. Is $5.99 for a piece of downloadable snare music really that difficult to stomach?

Many thanks to those on this forum who have obtained the music legally, and who have encouraged others to do so as well. You are the ones we want to keep serving with stuff that’s affordable and easily accessible.

Last gripe: Transcriptions of someone else’s music are technically what are known as derivate works—essentially arrangements. Technically speaking, permission must be granted by the owner for this as well. Personally, I’m aware of how helpful it can be in learning how to write to transcribe what someone else has done. I think to some degree, we all do that…it’s healthy!

However, when you freely post a transcription of someone else’s work, that can be crossing a legal line. If the transcription is of a published work, now you’re taking money out of someone else’s pocket. Some of the transcriptions I’ve seen of some of my own pieces, for instance, are clearly just re-input jobs exactly following my original markings, nuances, dynamics, stickings, etc., the only difference being that under the author’s name, it says: “Transcription by…”

I guess the point I’m trying to make here is to have some initial consideration for the person whose music you are transcribing. Ask their permission before posting a transcription.

Thanks for your consideration of a publisher’s point of view.

Sincerely,
Murray Gusseck
Tapspace Publications—Co-founder

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:58 pm
by drummerchris83
wow.............................................

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:02 pm
by Vega
i think 30% of the sites post might have to be deleted lol

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:03 pm
by bltsponge
Tapspace wrote:
However, when you freely post a transcription of someone else’s work, that can be crossing a legal line. If the transcription is of a published work, now you’re taking money out of someone else’s pocket. Some of the transcriptions I’ve seen of some of my own pieces, for instance, are clearly just re-input jobs exactly following my original markings, nuances, dynamics, stickings, etc., the only difference being that under the author’s name, it says: “Transcription by…”

I can see your point here about published works, but what about transcribing music that is not for sale, like show excerpts? Transcribing music like that (which makes up most of what is in the Snarescience transcription library) doesn't take away any potential sales.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:50 pm
by billc36
bltsponge wrote:
Tapspace wrote:
However, when you freely post a transcription of someone else’s work, that can be crossing a legal line. If the transcription is of a published work, now you’re taking money out of someone else’s pocket. Some of the transcriptions I’ve seen of some of my own pieces, for instance, are clearly just re-input jobs exactly following my original markings, nuances, dynamics, stickings, etc., the only difference being that under the author’s name, it says: “Transcription by…”

I can see your point here about published works, but what about transcribing music that is not for sale, like show excerpts? Transcribing music like that (which makes up most of what is in the Snarescience transcription library) doesn't take away any potential sales.
It does potentially take away from sales. Arrangers do resell their work from time to time. Besides, as Murray points out, transcribing is arranging. To do an arrangement you must first seek permission from the company that holds the rights to the arrangement.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:53 pm
by Tapspace
bltsponge wrote: I can see your point here about published works, but what about transcribing music that is not for sale, like show excerpts? Transcribing music like that (which makes up most of what is in the Snarescience transcription library) doesn't take away any potential sales.
I think the larger point is about having consideration for the person whose work you're transcribing. It's not entirely about loss of sales. Asking permission is a good way to 'express' that consideration. Knowing many of the cats in the activity that might fall into that boat, they'd be all too happy to say, "Sure, go ahead!" But just assuming that it's OK is a little discourteous.

Being a publisher, writer, teacher, etc., myself, I can see the issue from different standpoints. Again, I'm not trying to dissuade people from the valuable exercise of transcribing—just trying to shed some light on a publisher's point of view. To the few of us that are crazy enough to try and make a living by publishing marching music, this can be a pretty big deal.

Sincerely,
Murray Gusseck
Tapspace Publications—Co-founder

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:00 pm
by colonial snare
I was the one that emailed you about the writing exercises stuff.

I love your writing and I just bought you "GO" warmup a couple of days ago.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:28 pm
by ChickenLips
Tapspace wrote: I think the larger point is about having consideration for the person whose work you're transcribing. It's not entirely about loss of sales. Asking permission is a good way to 'express' that consideration. Knowing many of the cats in the activity that might fall into that boat, they'd be all too happy to say, "Sure, go ahead!" But just assuming that it's OK is a little discourteous.
So, you're saying that to transcribe something, we should ask permission from the writer of the music? Sometimes that's easier said than done, IMO. Getting in touch with people in the activity isn't always easy, and having to ask to transcribe x:xx-x:xx in a particular video or a certain movement of a show would seem to overflow the writer's e-mail a good bit. It could just get extremely tedious for you guys sometimes.

I understand what you're saying though.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:51 pm
by billc36
ChickenLips wrote:
Tapspace wrote: I think the larger point is about having consideration for the person whose work you're transcribing. It's not entirely about loss of sales. Asking permission is a good way to 'express' that consideration. Knowing many of the cats in the activity that might fall into that boat, they'd be all too happy to say, "Sure, go ahead!" But just assuming that it's OK is a little discourteous.
So, you're saying that to transcribe something, we should ask permission from the writer of the music? Sometimes that's easier said than done, IMO. Getting in touch with people in the activity isn't always easy, and having to ask to transcribe x:xx-x:xx in a particular video or a certain movement of a show would seem to overflow the writer's e-mail a good bit. It could just get extremely tedious for you guys sometimes.

I understand what you're saying though.
That is exactly what he is saying.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:07 pm
by AWA
I understand the composers' viewpoints completely; however, I find is difficult to understand how a person who is legitimately attempting to grow as a musician should be hindered, for example, by the fact that he or she cannot physically get in touch with a composer to secure right to transcribe works. While I accept that, strictly speaking, copyright law is technically being infringed, I also understand that the likelyhood of resale of a DCI-level battery book is fairly low, and any profit to be made from such a resale couldn't be too great, or at least great enough to warrant such action.

I will of course follow whatever policies may be outlined by each individual composer in regard to their own work, but until the forum receives word that a work may not be posted, I will continue as though permission were granted. The potential for growth as a musician, improvement of technical skill, and motivation to just "be better" is too great for me to do otherwise.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:28 pm
by billc36
Until Ryan hears from each arranger/composer, the music posted should be considered illegal. Honestly, it should be taken down except for anything from SCV 2009 show music wise as I know that Ryan got permission to allow that to stay up.

It's not about making a profit from someone elses work, it's about distributing someone elses work, regardless of potential profit.

This is the age of the internet, if you can't find someone's email address, you've got problems.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:30 pm
by bltsponge
billc36 wrote: It's not about making a profit from someone elses work, it's about distributing someone elses work, regardless of potential profit.
So should lot videos be taken off of youtube and other sites?

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:31 pm
by billc36
More and more corps are having them taken down since many corps are starting to put out lot DVD's.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:35 pm
by AWA
On the one hand, you claim to be about protecting authors' rights. I respect that. On the other hand, you also seem to be defending profit to be made from potential sales of this material. What I don't get is that you guys are cutting off an extraordinarily important and powerful way to motivate young musicians to grow into powerful players in the percussion world, all for the tiny amount of monetary profit that could be made from selling battery material. Downloadable music is, I grant, a legitimate beef, but battery excerpts from shows? That's just being selfish.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:42 pm
by bltsponge
AWA wrote:On the one hand, you claim to be about protecting authors' rights. I respect that. On the other hand, you also seem to be defending profit to be made from potential sales of this material. What I don't get is that you guys are cutting off an extraordinarily important and powerful way to motivate young musicians to grow into powerful players in the percussion world, all for the tiny amount of monetary profit that could be made from selling battery material. Downloadable music is, I grant, a legitimate beef, but battery excerpts from shows? That's just being selfish.
Agreed. It seems like it would be a better solution to take down transcriptions of pieces that are being sold for profit than to assume that they all resulting in potentially lost profits. I have personally never seen any battery show excerpts being sold. I'm not saying that you're lying about this, just that the amount show music being sold for profit is greatly dwarfed by that which is not. Because of that, it makes much more sense to take care of problems on a per-instance basis rather than just ban an educational practice all together.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:47 pm
by koopthepoopscoop
I have to say, I agree with bill in regards to the law. It is intellectual property, regardless of whether it is being sold or not. However, transcriptions of battery books, and the trading thereof, is a valuable tool to the arrangers, staff members, and educators of the drum corps world. To be able to do what you need to do as an ensemble, you need the talent. These transcriptions provide a way for ambitious young drummers to access music at a higher level, rather than just playing their high school's book over and over. Seriously, if I didn't see 5's in transcriptions that I've seen, I would have no idea how to play them. I never came across them in anything but DCI books.

It's a valuable educational tool. At the very least, if you are to discourage the publication of transcriptions on forums like these, then you should at least make excerpts or full books publicly available. I'm not saying that's the best solution, but it's just food for thought.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:48 pm
by snarescience
Guys, I think the main gist is to ask for permission to make these transcriptions available both for legal reasons AND as a show of courtesy to the original author(s). How big or little to potential profit for the original author is really immaterial.

I know I would be pretty upset if people were openly trading my practice mp3s ($1) even though my income from those doesn't come close to cover the hosting costs of this website.

Please everyone remain calm. It isn't the end of the world. I'm going through the transcriptions now and contacting the original authors.

Ryan

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:53 pm
by AWA
snarescience wrote:Guys, I think the main gist is to ask for permission to make these transcriptions available both for legal reasons AND as a show of courtesy to the original author(s). How big or little to potential profit for the original author is really immaterial.

I know I would be pretty upset if people were openly trading my practice mp3s ($1) even though my income from those doesn't come close to cover the hosting costs of this website.

Please everyone remain calm. It isn't the end of the world. I'm going through the transcriptions now and contacting the original authors.

Ryan
I understand all this, and I also understand that it isn't really a big deal. On the other hand, this has clearly been an issue with the percussive community, and I see here an opportunity for possible solutions to be reached. An open discussion would be ideal for such a solution to be proposed.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:20 pm
by Timartin
No big deal guys..

I do notice that you talked about how accurate the transcriptions were and how that was one of the big reasons you didn't want them to be put up. Out of curiosity I have 2 questions:

If they weren't as accurate, would you still let them be put up?

truly, how accurate are these transcriptions? I'm pretty impressed by them myself...

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:56 pm
by jclmeay
O.o did my SHWB transcription fall in the naughty category? Yes, I'll admit I didn't ask permission, but I only transcribed it by listening to a video of it, not from sheet music.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:12 pm
by TickintheBox
I see some people arguing that this will hinder some people in not being able to transcribe music. You can still transcribe it for yourself, just don't post it unless you have permission. Then you can get the experience.
Why not sell battery books when the season is over? Alot of things that I've bought are from YEARS ago. I like playing more recent stuff, so do a lot of other people I know. I would gladly pay like 20-30 bucks for a hot book knowing it will go towards the ensemble that performed it.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:21 pm
by bltsponge
TickintheBox wrote:I see some people arguing that this will hinder some people in not being able to transcribe music. You can still transcribe it for yourself, just don't post it unless you have permission. Then you can get the experience.
What about the education experience of learning music transcribed by others?

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:26 pm
by TickintheBox
bltsponge wrote:
TickintheBox wrote:I see some people arguing that this will hinder some people in not being able to transcribe music. You can still transcribe it for yourself, just don't post it unless you have permission. Then you can get the experience.
What about the education experience of learning music transcribed by others?
Pay for your education. Buy it

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:27 pm
by AFHSdrummer
bltsponge wrote:
TickintheBox wrote:I see some people arguing that this will hinder some people in not being able to transcribe music. You can still transcribe it for yourself, just don't post it unless you have permission. Then you can get the experience.
What about the education experience of learning music transcribed by others?
Yeah i see transcribed music as an educational tool, not as a retail product. It's not like the people who transcribe it are parading it around calling it their own work and making a profit over it. They simple transcribed it to not only better themselves, but to allow other drummers in this community to have the opportunity to better themselves also. I know I've learned quite a bit from transcriptions on this site. This site is built on the purpose of drummers helping other drummers improve. Transcriptions are just an educational tool.

But i will say that people who just type out purchased scores into finale and then call it their own transcription are doing something wrong. That is just copying copyrighted material

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:30 pm
by bltsponge
TickintheBox wrote:
bltsponge wrote:
TickintheBox wrote:I see some people arguing that this will hinder some people in not being able to transcribe music. You can still transcribe it for yourself, just don't post it unless you have permission. Then you can get the experience.
What about the education experience of learning music transcribed by others?
Pay for your education. Buy it
I'm talking about music that's not for sale, like show excerpts.

I'd definitely like to buy a corps' book if it were offered, though. I'm sure selling the snare book for $30 or so wouldn't be a bad way for a corps to make some money after the season is over.