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snarescience.com • Illegal Trading - Page 4
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:28 am
by billc36
I don't believe that the Fair Use Doctrine allows for mass distribution. The intent was for school teachers to be able to make copies of sections of work for class room use, not to be posted on the internet for everyone to see.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:01 am
by Wynder
billc36 wrote:I don't believe that the Fair Use Doctrine allows for mass distribution. The intent was for school teachers to be able to make copies of sections of work for class room use, not to be posted on the internet for everyone to see.
That is dreadfully incorrect, and I'm not sure if you're trying to mislead or you just didn't really read it. Fair use includes reproduction for the purposes of (amongst MANY other things), "teaching (including {not limited to} copies for classroom use and scholarship {learning}." So, no, the intent of Fair Use is not strictly for teachers to make copies for classroom use.

As for 'distribution', lets go ahead and look at the example you gave -- the teacher passing out the copies to her students. Guess what? That's distribution. Without that specific example given, I'd argue that Fair Use doesn't care about distribution, just the use of the individual defending their claim to fairly use the material; however, since that example is actually stare decisis it could (and probably has) been used to argue similar cases.

So, again, I'm asking that people please don't attempt to mislead others or misconstrue information to fit your personal feelings... It's simply not black and white -- folks aren't doing this to make profit, it's to expand our culture and educational horizons of up and coming musicians.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:04 pm
by optsyn
Wynder wrote:folks aren't doing this to make profit, it's to expand our culture and educational horizons of up and coming musicians.
Then why start a company like Tapspace to sell works if it's not for profit then? Why not just give it out for free?

My point is we're taking money away from some of the best in the business: the folks who have made a lasting impact on the activity. We should support these people.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:21 pm
by Wynder
Bush Snare KT wrote:Then why start a company like Tapspace to sell works if it's not for profit then? Why not just give it out for free?
So that people who aren't using under the Fair Use doctrine CAN purchase it: people who run programs and aren't using this strictly for nonprofit learning or scholarly purposes.
My point is we're taking money away from some of the best in the business: the folks who have made a lasting impact on the activity. We should support these people.
Again, this requires a presupposition; that being said, I agree with your conclusion (which is why I've dropped hundreds of dollars on Tapspace software). However, I don't feel that a 15-year old snare drummer who's just trying to discover the art and is trying to grow as an amateur musician necessarily has the obligation to, where an indoor or university program who's selling merchandise and making tour or tuition fees does.

There's a reason Fair Use exists, hopefully you can understand the above distinction.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:33 pm
by optsyn
I understand you distinction, and your point. I just don't necessarily agree with it. I think by flooding the market with free copyrighted material, the composers and drum corps associated with those composers (in the case of entire packets being traded) are harmed.

Drum corps need every possible way of staying afloat, especially in a down economy.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:39 pm
by Wynder
Bush Snare KT wrote:I understand you distinction, and your point. I just don't necessarily agree with it.
An agreement to disagree then. :)

To clarify, I'm more in support of the transcriptions aspect of this debate than I am the Tapspace software... This thing has gone off on several different tangents, but trading the Tapspace stuff also assumes that someone has dropped the $600 for Finale and the $200 for VDL, so most likely that person has the resources to pay $5 with a fair amount of ease or they're engaged in activities that would preclude them from using the material under Fair Use.

But a lot of these kids are high school students who are amped about marching and want to learn styles, techniques and histories... not make money.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:41 pm
by optsyn
Well, I agree with you there. I think that's part of what makes the website such a great learning tool.

I'm talking about trading music that could be otherwise purchased.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 3:10 pm
by AWA
No one is arguing that things that can be purchased should be traded illegally; there I think everyone agrees. I believe that the controversy is over transcriptions; whether they should be posted, and their usage under Fair Use, etc.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:25 pm
by drummerchris83
How is it that DLO can do it then?

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:03 pm
by Kietey
heh DLO is private in a sense. You have to attain status there before you can even see transcriptions. That still doesn't make it right but they do have a line of protection.

I've been sitting back idly watching this conversation grow and there are many points that have been raised. I would like to add another one. I know that they recently were taking down any DCI videos with their public lot performances. They even will take down any scv 04 videos that I will try to publish on youtube. I have a plethora of old SCV 04 vids from a guy that got his youtube account closed and these are just to good to keep to yourself.

Essentially my point is, now that they are going after transcriptions (which they have every right to; I agree on their reasons as well (Just attempt to get permission, arrangers should be used to mass emails by now) since I'm sure after writing for a whole YEAR of DCI, they don't just throw that music into the garbage pale and start a new) are the DCI cops (lol) going to go after lot videos again as well that we take with our own camcorders and such. The music has a copyright that the corps is performing in a public forum. I don't the specifics of what happened in the past but I know a lot of SCV stuff, even on the Pearl website, has disappeared and a lot of good music on youtube I used to play along with I can't play anymore since it is not there. The videos provide us with ample information to transcribe from. So I hope if trading doesn't stop (I'm sure it won't since it's mainly the kids who don't have a credit card to buy from tapspace are going to be the ones doing the trading - Ethics is taught over time, some people just don't get it as well as others) they won't go after the videos again which I NEEEEEED LOL.

I myself used to make an awesome amount of transcriptions that I did not publish just for this reason. I still know the majority of the music from way back then when I used to do transcriptions. It's scary how accurate they were, since I got the opportunity to play a lot of it with the people who actually marched the music in recent years. Once I saw tapspace go up and the youtube videos get taken down. I figured it would be a good idea to keep this stuff to myself and only show those I know in secret lol.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 6:31 pm
by taylormeador
AWA wrote:No one is arguing that things that can be purchased should be traded illegally; there I think everyone agrees. I believe that the controversy is over transcriptions; whether they should be posted, and their usage under Fair Use, etc.
Yeah I think that's where the main controversy is. I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to be posted. So long as the only thing they are used for is educational purposes, I don't see why that should be illegal. And I don't think anyone tries to perform or make money off of any of the transcriptions do they? So what harm is being done?

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:44 pm
by spdrumz
taylormeador wrote:
AWA wrote:No one is arguing that things that can be purchased should be traded illegally; there I think everyone agrees. I believe that the controversy is over transcriptions; whether they should be posted, and their usage under Fair Use, etc.
Yeah I think that's where the main controversy is. I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to be posted. So long as the only thing they are used for is educational purposes, I don't see why that should be illegal. And I don't think anyone tries to perform or make money off of any of the transcriptions do they? So what harm is being done?
well if its a transcription of something that someone is selling, then people will say why buy when I can get a free version and just iron out any kinks myself. like it was said, books aren't always cheap. this is why we're finding out who cares and who doesn't. being a gigging musician who also writes a bit of music that eventually I want published, I completely get what Bill, Murray Gusseck and any other writer who said no means by this. it is frustrating though....thats life I guess.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 7:57 pm
by AWA
spdrumz wrote:
taylormeador wrote:
AWA wrote:No one is arguing that things that can be purchased should be traded illegally; there I think everyone agrees. I believe that the controversy is over transcriptions; whether they should be posted, and their usage under Fair Use, etc.
Yeah I think that's where the main controversy is. I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to be posted. So long as the only thing they are used for is educational purposes, I don't see why that should be illegal. And I don't think anyone tries to perform or make money off of any of the transcriptions do they? So what harm is being done?
well if its a transcription of something that someone is selling
This is what we're talking about. I understand restrictions against ANYTHING that someone is selling. My beef is when there are restrictions against things they aren't selling.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:01 pm
by spdrumz
AWA wrote:
spdrumz wrote:
taylormeador wrote: Yeah I think that's where the main controversy is. I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to be posted. So long as the only thing they are used for is educational purposes, I don't see why that should be illegal. And I don't think anyone tries to perform or make money off of any of the transcriptions do they? So what harm is being done?
well if its a transcription of something that someone is selling
This is what we're talking about. I understand restrictions against ANYTHING that someone is selling. My beef is when there are restrictions against things they aren't selling.

I think people are kind of missing that every time someone says it =p

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:07 pm
by Wynder
spdrumz wrote:then people will say why buy when I can get a free version and just iron out any kinks myself.
And here enters the eternal legal debate... laws are only followed by law abiding citizens. There is nothing that can put into place that will stop someone intent on breaking the law from actually doing so; that's where the whole faith in humanity comes into play. :)

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:52 am
by taylormeador
spdrumz wrote:
AWA wrote:
spdrumz wrote:
well if its a transcription of something that someone is selling
This is what we're talking about. I understand restrictions against ANYTHING that someone is selling. My beef is when there are restrictions against things they aren't selling.

I think people are kind of missing that every time someone says it =p
Yeah I think they are. I'm not talking about stuff that is being sold though. Because I'm pretty sure that is illegal.

I'll bring up something that was said earlier though. People very commonly transcribe parts of books and what not. We say that a majority of this music is not for sale correct? Also the books that are for sale are a lot of money aren't they? But what if we just want to learn some of the parts we think are cool so that we can get better or something to that effect. It would be a waste to buy a whole show just for that. Maybe I misunderstood but when you buy a show (or really any piece of music), doesn't that give you a right to publicly perform it legally? That's what I thought the majority of the reason for buying it would be. But this isn't what most of us want to do with excerpts from shows. We just want to learn. Is that correct?

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:46 pm
by mbbCenter
So I have got now to read everything sometimes. Is me not quite simply with my bad English. I hope this what writes I now is readable, I leave it to online translation.

I already understand Mr. Murray Gusseck, even if I am one that which does have mostly of not bought sheet music. I think sometimes I have not simply attacked enough thoughts what I am also sorry now.

Still I am only somebody who has what he, can never become be able to plays, because I will not simply be well enough for it. But the picture simply interests me to the music (I am addicted sheet music).

Here at the beginning I have only been to get sheet music. But, even if I write here not a lot, I have remained because I could learn here a lot. And mostly by this transcriptions of the other members (Respect for you which you are able to do).

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:45 pm
by BSBottom5
lordn3o wrote:I like to try and read everything, and most of what i get comes from online transcriptions

I understand Murray, even though I am a big perputraitor of downloading transcibed (or pirated) music that he has written. at the time i didn't think about it enough, but I'm very sorry now.

Still, even though i cant play a lot of it, I do benifit greatly from it because i believe it is making me a better player. Reading the music makes me better at it (I'm addicted to reading sheet music)

at the beginning I've only been able to get sheet music. But, even if I dont write here a ton, I still visit because of all the knowlage i obtain from this site, mostly the transcriptions of music by other members (I respect murray for everything he has done and is going to do).

there ya go bud. thats what i read at least, hope it helps out a bit.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:50 pm
by mbbCenter
hey thx ;-)

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 5:09 pm
by BSBottom5
i dont know if thats exactly what you meant to write, but i did the best i could

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 6:43 pm
by tommyservo7
Kietey wrote:heh DLO is private in a sense. You have to attain status there before you can even see transcriptions. That still doesn't make it right but they do have a line of protection.
Could/should we do something like this? I don't necessarily agree with "You must have x posts before you can download sheet music," but what about a time period.

The 50% percentile for posts here is somewhere around 2.5 total posts. To me, this indicates to me that huge amount of people come here just for the free music. Give Google a visit and enter "free snare music" (I'm almost certain its how most of us, myself included, found snarescience). First result: snarescience.com. Millions of people have the ability to steal away the efforts of the composers/arrangers of the pieces in a few clicks.

As I said, I don't agree with a post requirement, but what about a time requirement? To me, if you've been here for a few months, posting regularly and contributing to the community, then the transcriptions library is most likely just an accessory to the wealth of knowledge accessible on snarescience. I originally visited DLO to see what kind of music they had to offer, and never visited again because of their requirements about downloading sheet music. But now, I understand their logic.

Thanks to Ryan's monthly updates, I think we all realize how quickly the site is growing, and thus how many people are coming to download transcriptions. You might go as far as to say that is the responsibility of the community to ensure the security of its work, and, without limiting further growth, somehow filter the flow of copyrighted intelligence to the rest of the world.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:23 pm
by snarescience
tommyservo7 wrote:
Kietey wrote:heh DLO is private in a sense. You have to attain status there before you can even see transcriptions. That still doesn't make it right but they do have a line of protection.
Could/should we do something like this? I don't necessarily agree with "You must have x posts before you can download sheet music," but what about a time period.

The 50% percentile for posts here is somewhere around 2.5 total posts. To me, this indicates to me that huge amount of people come here just for the free music. Give Google a visit and enter "free snare music" (I'm almost certain its how most of us, myself included, found snarescience). First result: snarescience.com. Millions of people have the ability to steal away the efforts of the composers/arrangers of the pieces in a few clicks.

As I said, I don't agree with a post requirement, but what about a time requirement? To me, if you've been here for a few months, posting regularly and contributing to the community, then the transcriptions library is most likely just an accessory to the wealth of knowledge accessible on snarescience. I originally visited DLO to see what kind of music they had to offer, and never visited again because of their requirements about downloading sheet music. But now, I understand their logic.

Thanks to Ryan's monthly updates, I think we all realize how quickly the site is growing, and thus how many people are coming to download transcriptions. You might go as far as to say that is the responsibility of the community to ensure the security of its work, and, without limiting further growth, somehow filter the flow of copyrighted intelligence to the rest of the world.
Not to derail this thread, but its funny what you said about the google search. When I created this site, long before I even dreamed about having a booming discussion forum, I specifically targeted the google search phrase 'free snare music'. It appears I was successful. :)

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 7:27 pm
by BSBottom5
snarescience wrote:
tommyservo7 wrote:
Kietey wrote:heh DLO is private in a sense. You have to attain status there before you can even see transcriptions. That still doesn't make it right but they do have a line of protection.
Could/should we do something like this? I don't necessarily agree with "You must have x posts before you can download sheet music," but what about a time period.

The 50% percentile for posts here is somewhere around 2.5 total posts. To me, this indicates to me that huge amount of people come here just for the free music. Give Google a visit and enter "free snare music" (I'm almost certain its how most of us, myself included, found snarescience). First result: snarescience.com. Millions of people have the ability to steal away the efforts of the composers/arrangers of the pieces in a few clicks.

As I said, I don't agree with a post requirement, but what about a time requirement? To me, if you've been here for a few months, posting regularly and contributing to the community, then the transcriptions library is most likely just an accessory to the wealth of knowledge accessible on snarescience. I originally visited DLO to see what kind of music they had to offer, and never visited again because of their requirements about downloading sheet music. But now, I understand their logic.

Thanks to Ryan's monthly updates, I think we all realize how quickly the site is growing, and thus how many people are coming to download transcriptions. You might go as far as to say that is the responsibility of the community to ensure the security of its work, and, without limiting further growth, somehow filter the flow of copyrighted intelligence to the rest of the world.
Not to derail this thread, but its funny what you said about the google search. When I created this site, long before I even dreamed about having a booming discussion forum, I specifically targeted the google search phrase 'free snare music'. It appears I was successful. :)

indeed you we're i was introduced to this by a friend though

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:05 pm
by taylormeador
BSBottom5 wrote:
snarescience wrote:
tommyservo7 wrote:
Could/should we do something like this? I don't necessarily agree with "You must have x posts before you can download sheet music," but what about a time period.

The 50% percentile for posts here is somewhere around 2.5 total posts. To me, this indicates to me that huge amount of people come here just for the free music. Give Google a visit and enter "free snare music" (I'm almost certain its how most of us, myself included, found snarescience). First result: snarescience.com. Millions of people have the ability to steal away the efforts of the composers/arrangers of the pieces in a few clicks.

As I said, I don't agree with a post requirement, but what about a time requirement? To me, if you've been here for a few months, posting regularly and contributing to the community, then the transcriptions library is most likely just an accessory to the wealth of knowledge accessible on snarescience. I originally visited DLO to see what kind of music they had to offer, and never visited again because of their requirements about downloading sheet music. But now, I understand their logic.

Thanks to Ryan's monthly updates, I think we all realize how quickly the site is growing, and thus how many people are coming to download transcriptions. You might go as far as to say that is the responsibility of the community to ensure the security of its work, and, without limiting further growth, somehow filter the flow of copyrighted intelligence to the rest of the world.
Not to derail this thread, but its funny what you said about the google search. When I created this site, long before I even dreamed about having a booming discussion forum, I specifically targeted the google search phrase 'free snare music'. It appears I was successful. :)

indeed you we're i was introduced to this by a friend though
Maybe I'm just an idiot or something, but I tried to find a site like this by searching google for about a month before i found it. It was well worth my time searching though.

Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:33 am
by drummerchris83
so ryan...........Are you going to make sheet music (trading) private?