Illegal Trading

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Wynder Offline
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:47 pm



madchops wrote:
brsnare308 wrote:Just read the topic about transcription permission. The only people that see a problem with any of this are those who use Tapspace. Coincidence..... I think not...
and the US government
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:03 pm



i say continue to transcribe, just dont make it available to anyone else.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:04 pm



supersexy0069 wrote:i say continue to transcribe, just dont make it available to anyone else.
I'd rather not have this place get shut down so lets keep it to those groups we can transcribe for!
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:07 pm



brsnare308 wrote:
supersexy0069 wrote:i say continue to transcribe, just dont make it available to anyone else.
I'd rather not have this place get shut down so lets keep it to those groups we can transcribe for!
im not saying i endorse it, but even if you do transcribe the stuff that people say you cant, if you dont give it to anyone else, no one would ever know. just saying...
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bltsponge wrote:You have no idea what sounds a tenor line can produce when they're marching 1",2",3",4",6",8",10","12",13",14" drums (also known as EFFING HUGE block tenors). It's unreal.


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:08 pm



quadripedman wrote:
brsnare308 wrote:
supersexy0069 wrote:i say continue to transcribe, just dont make it available to anyone else.
I'd rather not have this place get shut down so lets keep it to those groups we can transcribe for!
im not saying i endorse it, but even if you do transcribe the stuff that people say you cant, if you dont give it to anyone else, no one would ever know. just saying...
Thank You Captain Obvious!
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:10 pm



brsnare308 wrote:
quadripedman wrote:
brsnare308 wrote: I'd rather not have this place get shut down so lets keep it to those groups we can transcribe for!
im not saying i endorse it, but even if you do transcribe the stuff that people say you cant, if you dont give it to anyone else, no one would ever know. just saying...
Thank You Captain Obvious!
you're quite welcome, sir!
NPHS: Tenors (2009-2010)
bltsponge wrote:You have no idea what sounds a tenor line can produce when they're marching 1",2",3",4",6",8",10","12",13",14" drums (also known as EFFING HUGE block tenors). It's unreal.


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:18 pm



Wait!!!! Can't Mr. Gusseck only take down the SCV Stuff that is his, not all of it??
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:22 pm



brsnare308 wrote:Wait!!!! Can't Mr. Gusseck only take down the SCV Stuff that is his, not all of it??
he can really only take down his stuff. i think...
NPHS: Tenors (2009-2010)
bltsponge wrote:You have no idea what sounds a tenor line can produce when they're marching 1",2",3",4",6",8",10","12",13",14" drums (also known as EFFING HUGE block tenors). It's unreal.


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:25 pm



quadripedman wrote:
brsnare308 wrote:Wait!!!! Can't Mr. Gusseck only take down the SCV Stuff that is his, not all of it??
he can really only take down his stuff. i think...
Where's Ryan when you need him?
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:03 pm



quadripedman wrote:
brsnare308 wrote:
supersexy0069 wrote:i say continue to transcribe, just dont make it available to anyone else.
I'd rather not have this place get shut down so lets keep it to those groups we can transcribe for!
im not saying i endorse it, but even if you do transcribe the stuff that people say you cant, if you dont give it to anyone else, no one would ever know. just saying...
I don't think they are saying you can't transcribe it. They just don't want you publicly posting and distributing it. I think.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:24 pm



taylormeador wrote:
quadripedman wrote:
brsnare308 wrote: I'd rather not have this place get shut down so lets keep it to those groups we can transcribe for!
im not saying i endorse it, but even if you do transcribe the stuff that people say you cant, if you dont give it to anyone else, no one would ever know. just saying...
I don't think they are saying you can't transcribe it. They just don't want you publicly posting and distributing it. I think.
in fact, thats exactly what Gusseck said. just in different words.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:49 pm



brsnare308 wrote:
quadripedman wrote:
brsnare308 wrote:Wait!!!! Can't Mr. Gusseck only take down the SCV Stuff that is his, not all of it??
he can really only take down his stuff. i think...
Where's Ryan when you need him?
considering he's a co-owner of tapspace, he could probably make you take down anything that is published by them, also.


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:04 pm



I'm sorry, but you guys are being ridiculous.

These guys make a living writing this music. If you would like to learn it, buy it for yourself. I think we are lucky that we live in a time that music can so easily pass from writer to player, and I think you should all consider yourselves lucky that most of these guys are cool enough to give you permission to transcribe/arrange their pieces.

Have I searched for music before, just to illegally download it? Yes. But that was before I began to really understand how much time and effort goes into those pieces, just so that a small percentage of the people who wind up with the piece actually play it.

Tapspace asks a small fee for the effort they put into the amazing work they put out. Seriously, just pay the $7 and play it.

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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:05 pm



Novak wrote:I'm sorry, but you guys are being ridiculous.

These guys make a living writing this music. If you would like to learn it, buy it for yourself. I think we are lucky that we live in a time that music can so easily pass from writer to player, and I think you should all consider yourselves lucky that most of these guys are cool enough to give you permission to transcribe/arrange their pieces.

Have I searched for music before, just to illegally download it? Yes. But that was before I began to really understand how much time and effort goes into those pieces, just so that a small percentage of the people who wind up with the piece actually play it.

Tapspace asks a small fee for the effort they put into the amazing work they put out. Seriously, just pay the $7 and play it.

As Stewie from Family Guy said: "Learn the rules."
+8.3
I play and teach music (sometimes even band music!)

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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:54 am



Novak wrote:I'm sorry, but you guys are being ridiculous.

These guys make a living writing this music. If you would like to learn it, buy it for yourself. I think we are lucky that we live in a time that music can so easily pass from writer to player, and I think you should all consider yourselves lucky that most of these guys are cool enough to give you permission to transcribe/arrange their pieces.

Have I searched for music before, just to illegally download it? Yes. But that was before I began to really understand how much time and effort goes into those pieces, just so that a small percentage of the people who wind up with the piece actually play it.

Tapspace asks a small fee for the effort they put into the amazing work they put out. Seriously, just pay the $7 and play it.

As Stewie from Family Guy said: "Learn the rules."
But we can't buy the show music. Thats where we have the problems.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:13 am



brsnare308 wrote:
Novak wrote:I'm sorry, but you guys are being ridiculous.

These guys make a living writing this music. If you would like to learn it, buy it for yourself. I think we are lucky that we live in a time that music can so easily pass from writer to player, and I think you should all consider yourselves lucky that most of these guys are cool enough to give you permission to transcribe/arrange their pieces.

Have I searched for music before, just to illegally download it? Yes. But that was before I began to really understand how much time and effort goes into those pieces, just so that a small percentage of the people who wind up with the piece actually play it.

Tapspace asks a small fee for the effort they put into the amazing work they put out. Seriously, just pay the $7 and play it.

As Stewie from Family Guy said: "Learn the rules."
But we can't buy the show music. Thats where we have the problems.
In most cases you can, you just have to ask. It's not cheap, but it's usually available.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:14 am



billc36 wrote:
brsnare308 wrote:
Novak wrote:I'm sorry, but you guys are being ridiculous.

These guys make a living writing this music. If you would like to learn it, buy it for yourself. I think we are lucky that we live in a time that music can so easily pass from writer to player, and I think you should all consider yourselves lucky that most of these guys are cool enough to give you permission to transcribe/arrange their pieces.

Have I searched for music before, just to illegally download it? Yes. But that was before I began to really understand how much time and effort goes into those pieces, just so that a small percentage of the people who wind up with the piece actually play it.

Tapspace asks a small fee for the effort they put into the amazing work they put out. Seriously, just pay the $7 and play it.

As Stewie from Family Guy said: "Learn the rules."
But we can't buy the show music. Thats where we have the problems.

In most cases you can, you just have to ask. It's not cheap, but it's usually available.
or, get in contact with the composer and ask if you can transcribe it
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:37 pm



quadripedman wrote:
brsnare308 wrote:Wait!!!! Can't Mr. Gusseck only take down the SCV Stuff that is his, not all of it??
he can really only take down his stuff. i think...
Hey guys, I really don't think that's the point.

It's very tough to make a living teaching and writing in the marching arts. Very, very few people have been able to pull this off successfully, and most of these people are the folks we've all looked up to since we started out in the activity.

The point is... this is a public forum, and by sharing a lot of this stuff for free, it's driving down the value of the work of some very hard working, talented individuals.

The law aside (and the law is what is is), just remember who you're taking those hard earned dollars away from: Corps, Composers, and Instructors. Many of whom are very people who you look up to and that have come before you.

Remember, you're not taking from some huge, for profit corporation.

Drum corps is something that no one does for the money... and those who are talented and lucky enough to make a living doing it should have their livelihoods protected, or in the least... respected.


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:51 pm



Bush Snare KT wrote:
quadripedman wrote:
brsnare308 wrote:Wait!!!! Can't Mr. Gusseck only take down the SCV Stuff that is his, not all of it??
he can really only take down his stuff. i think...
Hey guys, I really don't think that's the point.

It's very tough to make a living teaching and writing in the marching arts. Very, very few people have been able to pull this off successfully, and most of these people are the folks we've all looked up to since we started out in the activity.

The point is... this is a public forum, and by sharing a lot of this stuff for free, it's driving down the value of the work of some very hard working, talented individuals.

The law aside (and the law is what is is), just remember who you're taking those hard earned dollars away from: Corps, Composers, and Instructors. Many of whom are very people who you look up to and that have come before you.

Remember, you're not taking from some huge, for profit corporation.

Drum corps is something that no one does for the money... and those who are talented and lucky enough to make a living doing it should have their livelihoods protected, or in the least... respected.
+1 after following this forum, I feel bad for getting the music I did for free...=|
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:37 pm



Bush Snare KT wrote:The law aside (and the law is what is is)
Thank you for the qualification.
The law aside (and the law is what is is), just remember who you're taking those hard earned dollars away from: Corps, Composers, and Instructors.
This presupposes that the works would've been purchased in the first place -- half of the music and writers I've gotten in my lifetime I never would have known existed, and what happened recently? I found out I could actually get these in score form from writers I like on Tapspace, so I go out and drop the $200 to pick up VDL (and about $25 or so in paid updates to the brand new software).

The same thing has happened with the bogus claims that the RIAA spouts about money being taken away from the artists when sales actually have seen an increase. So please, feel free to ask folks to do it out of respect, but don't claim morals, create unsubstantiated scenarios or absolute claims of illegality [not all directed specifically at you Bush, no disrespect there. :)].

There are just a LOT of assumptions and misinformation being presented here and, although it may be against the grain, I feel that people should have a clear and unbiased understanding of what is and isn't.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:30 pm



Tapspace wrote:Hey guys,

At the risk of sounding whiny, it's really disheartening to see so much blatant illegal trading being condoned on here. While it's flattering knowing that people enjoy the music enough to want to share it and collect it, that's other people's livelihoods you're playing with when you give it away or trade it illegally.

It may help to illuminate the situation by letting you guys know that most of us that have been involved in this activity for quite a while, and who contribute to it regularly through music publications, teaching, or writing—small businesses like Tapspace or Row-Loff, or even the DCI or WGI groups themselves—are not multi-million dollar corporations. We’re either individuals or small business operations, or nonprofit enterprises. We do not grow money on trees.

Speaking for myself, and Tapspace, I can tell you that many times we have discussed doing away with our downloadable titles for exactly this reason. We haven't because many people that honestly and legally acquire the material from us really appreciate the convenience and the cheap cost of purchasing music this way.

An option we may have to pursue incorporates Digital Rights Management (DRM) technology to copy-protect the files. This can be very expensive for us, and we'd likely have to raise our prices significantly as a result. Is $5.99 for a piece of downloadable snare music really that difficult to stomach?

Many thanks to those on this forum who have obtained the music legally, and who have encouraged others to do so as well. You are the ones we want to keep serving with stuff that’s affordable and easily accessible.

Last gripe: Transcriptions of someone else’s music are technically what are known as derivate works—essentially arrangements. Technically speaking, permission must be granted by the owner for this as well. Personally, I’m aware of how helpful it can be in learning how to write to transcribe what someone else has done. I think to some degree, we all do that…it’s healthy!

However, when you freely post a transcription of someone else’s work, that can be crossing a legal line. If the transcription is of a published work, now you’re taking money out of someone else’s pocket. Some of the transcriptions I’ve seen of some of my own pieces, for instance, are clearly just re-input jobs exactly following my original markings, nuances, dynamics, stickings, etc., the only difference being that under the author’s name, it says: “Transcription by…”

I guess the point I’m trying to make here is to have some initial consideration for the person whose music you are transcribing. Ask their permission before posting a transcription.

Thanks for your consideration of a publisher’s point of view.

Sincerely,
Murray Gusseck
Tapspace Publications—Co-founder
o my god i feel so guilty. i would just like yall to know that 5.99 isnt an outrageous price its just that some of us are too younge to have a credit card to purchase said peices and are parents are deffinatly gonna buy this "c rap" and unfortunatley the only way is the illegal way. im not sayin its a good or right way to get music but for some of us if we wanna learn we gotta do it.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:47 pm



drumdude1 wrote:
Tapspace wrote:Hey guys,

At the risk of sounding whiny, it's really disheartening to see so much blatant illegal trading being condoned on here. While it's flattering knowing that people enjoy the music enough to want to share it and collect it, that's other people's livelihoods you're playing with when you give it away or trade it illegally.

It may help to illuminate the situation by letting you guys know that most of us that have been involved in this activity for quite a while, and who contribute to it regularly through music publications, teaching, or writing—small businesses like Tapspace or Row-Loff, or even the DCI or WGI groups themselves—are not multi-million dollar corporations. We’re either individuals or small business operations, or nonprofit enterprises. We do not grow money on trees.

Speaking for myself, and Tapspace, I can tell you that many times we have discussed doing away with our downloadable titles for exactly this reason. We haven't because many people that honestly and legally acquire the material from us really appreciate the convenience and the cheap cost of purchasing music this way.

An option we may have to pursue incorporates Digital Rights Management (DRM) technology to copy-protect the files. This can be very expensive for us, and we'd likely have to raise our prices significantly as a result. Is $5.99 for a piece of downloadable snare music really that difficult to stomach?

Many thanks to those on this forum who have obtained the music legally, and who have encouraged others to do so as well. You are the ones we want to keep serving with stuff that’s affordable and easily accessible.

Last gripe: Transcriptions of someone else’s music are technically what are known as derivate works—essentially arrangements. Technically speaking, permission must be granted by the owner for this as well. Personally, I’m aware of how helpful it can be in learning how to write to transcribe what someone else has done. I think to some degree, we all do that…it’s healthy!

However, when you freely post a transcription of someone else’s work, that can be crossing a legal line. If the transcription is of a published work, now you’re taking money out of someone else’s pocket. Some of the transcriptions I’ve seen of some of my own pieces, for instance, are clearly just re-input jobs exactly following my original markings, nuances, dynamics, stickings, etc., the only difference being that under the author’s name, it says: “Transcription by…”

I guess the point I’m trying to make here is to have some initial consideration for the person whose music you are transcribing. Ask their permission before posting a transcription.

Thanks for your consideration of a publisher’s point of view.

Sincerely,
Murray Gusseck
Tapspace Publications—Co-founder
o my god i feel so guilty. i would just like yall to know that 5.99 isnt an outrageous price its just that some of us are too younge to have a credit card to purchase said peices and are parents are deffinatly gonna buy this "c rap" and unfortunatley the only way is the illegal way. im not sayin its a good or right way to get music but for some of us if we wanna learn we gotta do it.
this is true...it would also make things easier if people would stop complaining. :P. not going for one side or another, but the law is the law...people deserve to get money for what they produce.
NPHS: Tenors (2009-2010)
bltsponge wrote:You have no idea what sounds a tenor line can produce when they're marching 1",2",3",4",6",8",10","12",13",14" drums (also known as EFFING HUGE block tenors). It's unreal.


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:39 pm



Yes, they do, if any only if they offer what they produce. Many books are not for sale; for this reason, we transcribe them.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 12:22 am



Wynder wrote:
Bush Snare KT wrote:The law aside (and the law is what is is)
Thank you for the qualification.
The law aside (and the law is what is is), just remember who you're taking those hard earned dollars away from: Corps, Composers, and Instructors.
This presupposes that the works would've been purchased in the first place -- half of the music and writers I've gotten in my lifetime I never would have known existed, and what happened recently? I found out I could actually get these in score form from writers I like on Tapspace, so I go out and drop the $200 to pick up VDL (and about $25 or so in paid updates to the brand new software).

The same thing has happened with the bogus claims that the RIAA spouts about money being taken away from the artists when sales actually have seen an increase. So please, feel free to ask folks to do it out of respect, but don't claim morals, create unsubstantiated scenarios or absolute claims of illegality [not all directed specifically at you Bush, no disrespect there. :)].

There are just a LOT of assumptions and misinformation being presented here and, although it may be against the grain, I feel that people should have a clear and unbiased understanding of what is and isn't.
Wynder, I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here.

Are you implying that copyright infringement is in fact, not against the law?

I mean, you do present an interesting point regarding RIAA claims and the increase in sales. However, I think you're missing the bigger picture. Remember, marching percussion is a niche activity: there is a very small target audience compared with the relatively enormous worldwide audience that record companies have the luxury to cater to.

I also buy your argument in that what I said presupposes purchases in the first place...but only to a degree.

If you're internet savvy and your parents your main source of income (which I'm willing to bet describes quite a significant demographic in the marching music business UNLIKE the music industry as a whole)... those who would otherwise purchase these scores will more than likely figure out a way of finding it online for free, leaving the artist or corps with empty pockets.

My main point is I think it's important (especially in a down economy) to do the best we can to support these artists, and corps. I mean, the reason why we're all here is for our love of the activity, and I think it's important in such a niche, non-profit activity to do the best we can to support it.

Maybe not from a 'moral' standpoint, but a purely economic one.


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 5:58 am



Bush Snare KT wrote: Are you implying that copyright infringement is in fact, not against the law?
I've went into a post here earlier, so I won't go into great detail (again, as a qualifier, my area of focus is criminal law, not copyright); however, US Copyright Law has a doctrine of Fair Use (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) where use of copyrighted material for purposes, including non-profit education/scholarly use, may be commenced without the consent of the works' author.

I'd gather that a good majority of the young musicians on this board are looking to learn and expand their musical education, not use the transcriptions for the purposes of learning the material and performing it for profit and commercial gain. So, to answer your question, it's often not black and white, cut and dry copyright infringement to begin with.
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