Illegal Trading

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TickintheBox Offline
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:37 pm



bltsponge wrote:
TickintheBox wrote:
bltsponge wrote: What about the education experience of learning music transcribed by others?
Pay for your education. Buy it
I'm talking about music that's not for sale, like show excerpts.

I'd definitely like to buy a corps' book if it were offered, though. I'm sure selling the snare book for $30 or so wouldn't be a bad way for a corps to make some money after the season is over.
I can't see how it wouldn't bring in more money for the corps. There's always going to be people stealing it, that's just life, but at least there will be some people buying it and that's better than no people right?
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bltsponge Offline
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:38 pm



TickintheBox wrote:
bltsponge wrote:
TickintheBox wrote: Pay for your education. Buy it
I'm talking about music that's not for sale, like show excerpts.

I'd definitely like to buy a corps' book if it were offered, though. I'm sure selling the snare book for $30 or so wouldn't be a bad way for a corps to make some money after the season is over.
I can't see how it wouldn't bring in more money for the corps. There's always going to be people stealing it, that's just life, but at least there will be some people buying it and that's better than no people right?
I was agreeing with you...
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:44 pm



bltsponge wrote:
TickintheBox wrote:I see some people arguing that this will hinder some people in not being able to transcribe music. You can still transcribe it for yourself, just don't post it unless you have permission. Then you can get the experience.
What about the education experience of learning music transcribed by others?
If they go through the proper channels, and are approved to share it, than by all means you should share it.

I don't see why there is so much issue with what Murray has said here. This is no different than recorded music. If you buy a record and burn copies for people, you are legally in the wrong. If you learn all of the music on the album, record it, and distribute it, but don't contact the artist, you are in the wrong because you've not asked permission to use their music. The same thing goes for writing the music.

As far as show excerpts not being published, that isn't true. There are several excerpts from Vanguard's late 90's shows in Fresh Perspectives, Ramrod is an excerpt of the drum feature from Vanguard 03, and the Green Beats books always have excerpts from Cavies shows.

AWA, I don't get where you are coming from. Yes, they are possibly protecting their potential sales. I sincerely doubt Jim or Murray would prevent you from transcribing something that they have no plans to publish ever, but even if they wanted to, they have every right to say so.

Tapspace has continually put out excellent music and quality informational materials that continually stand out from majority of the stuff on the market today. I think we should do everything in our power to ensure that they are successful in continuing to do so.


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:48 pm



bltsponge wrote:
TickintheBox wrote:
bltsponge wrote:
I'm talking about music that's not for sale, like show excerpts.

I'd definitely like to buy a corps' book if it were offered, though. I'm sure selling the snare book for $30 or so wouldn't be a bad way for a corps to make some money after the season is over.
I can't see how it wouldn't bring in more money for the corps. There's always going to be people stealing it, that's just life, but at least there will be some people buying it and that's better than no people right?
I was agreeing with you...
I know man I was just throwing my thoughts out there. I didn't mean to make it sound like I was trying to argue with you, muh baaad =P
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billc36 Offline
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:22 pm



Many percussion books are available at the end of the season. I know that Key Poulan Music sells a couple of the SCV shows (2003 and 2004 I believe). They come at a price however. If you want just the percussion score, you're looking at around $1,000. Ralph Hardimon does, or did, sell his past SCV and BK scores. Again, there is a big price tag. If you contact many of the arrangers, they will sell scores, but they come at a price (and why shouldn't it?).

How is limiting the material available hindering the learning process? What did people do before the internet, or even copiers? There are so many books out there to learn from that if you can play through those books, you can play on any DCI line. Stick Control, the Logic Series, Fresh Perspectives just to name a few are amazing sources of learning.

Think about this for a second. Someone acquires some SCV show music that SCV secured permission to arrange and perform. That person uses the music in their high school marching band show. The original composer hears the butcher job of their music and no longer allows anyone to perform his or her music. We've now cut off a source of music because of a hack high school job. Ever notice how John Williams doesn't grant permission anymore or Stephen Millillo and Johan de Meij do but they charge a fortune? Heck, if you want to arrange any music from Andrew Lloyd Webber you have to secure permission, arrange the music, send it to his company in England for them to review and then pray that they find it acceptable enough to use.

The bottom line is these guys are writing the music or arranging it, the corps is paying the publishing companies for the right to arrange and perform their music and DCI is paying for the right to record and sell said recordings of their music. What gives us the right to acquire that music without paying for it?
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:55 pm



most transcriptions have mistakes in them. which means it isnt violating copyrights because it isnt the exact copy of the book.

is that correct?


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:01 pm



Opinions conflict everyone. I say heck with it and transcribe the heck out of whatever your heart so desires. Let them try to make our hobby illegal. This is just stupid. It's not like we are taking money from anyone. I haven't and don't plan on buying anything from Tapspace and other similar companies because I don't have the kind of money to hand to people for some paper when I can just hear the same piece of music, write what I hear and play it. It's more work but, we learn.

But, that's my opinion.


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:16 pm



madchops wrote:most transcriptions have mistakes in them. which means it isnt violating copyrights because it isnt the exact copy of the book.

is that correct?
well, kind of a way to put what bill said- let's say the composer were a high-quality toy company putting out a line of let's say uber-new tickle-me elmos. they wouldn't want some cheap "made in china" knockoff out there on shelves with them, because the quality is not to the company's higher standards. it may even be dangerous and cause a negative reaction from the consumer.

in other words, composers don't want to see a knockoff of their show

i mean, honestly, i didn't see anything wrong with posting transcriptions, but this discussion has put it into perspective.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:17 pm



madchops wrote:most transcriptions have mistakes in them. which means it isnt violating copyrights because it isnt the exact copy of the book.

is that correct?
That is incorrect. Any transcription is a 'derivative work' and could thus be considered copyright infringement.

I am working on contacting a bunch of the well known DCI composers and have been getting favorable responses so far.

Can we post transcriptions of these authors DCI snare / battery books?

Ralph Hardimon: "Yes but please ask first"
Brian Mason: "Yes"
Mike McIntosh: "Yes"
Tom Aungst: "Yes"
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:44 pm



Okay point made. No need to let this go on some huge argument like the one I saw a year ago at DLO.

You have to pay for things in life, free things rock when you can get them, but if you're given the option to either a) pay for something or b) ask if you can transcribe a copy; why would you complain about having to ask?

If there's anything I've learned through college is, while it sucks everything costs so much, education IS directly related to money. If you don't want to spend money or if you're too lazy to transcribe something, then go practice things that don't require sheet music. The best players got the hands they got because they spent hours on perfecting accent tap, basic triplet roll patterns, gridding flam rudiments, playing with a met and marking time in front of a mirror, etc. Not because they know every single Blue Devils lick since 2000.


Go buy books too, it's exactly like bill said, their are some great books on the market. If you REALLY want to learn a lick, transcribe it yourself (except don't write it out and post it on the internet).

There's just really no reason for anyone to cry about Murray wanting to protect his musical works. It's not the end of the world.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:11 am



yea some of the reactions were kinda unnecessary. like what's so hard with asking? and if they say no then fine. dont be a baby about it and just accept it and dont do it. You dont need transcriptions to live...just food water and shelter =)

........anybody else looking on the bright side of this and seeing that this site is getting more and more popular? =D
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 5:06 am



I kind of agree with the transcriptions needing permissions, I mean think of the music as a book. (The novel kind of book, not a show.) When an author writes a book, he doesn't want someone to read the book, or how about listen to a recording of it, since I guess that's more accurate to watching a video, then typing it all up and posting it on the internet.

Is it really that much different?
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 1:06 pm



snarescience wrote:
madchops wrote:most transcriptions have mistakes in them. which means it isnt violating copyrights because it isnt the exact copy of the book.

is that correct?
That is incorrect. Any transcription is a 'derivative work' and could thus be considered copyright infringement.
Mistakes in transcription would still have it fall under the derivative work category. However, if you add a sufficient amount of new work, it can actually be considered original -- from the US Copyright Office:

"To be copyrightable, a derivative work must be different enough from the original to be regarded as a "new work" or must contain a substantial amount of new material. Making minor changes or additions of little substance to a preexisting work will not qualify the work as a new version for copyright purposes. The new material must be original and copyrightable in itself."

Outside of that, I think folks are forgetting that the United States also has a "Fair Use" doctrine that allows folks to use copyrighted material without consent of its author for (among other things) the purposes of research, teaching and scholarship.

A four pronged test was developed in a Supreme Court case that factored:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

So, for the bulk of us, with regards to #1, we use this material for personal, nonprofit educational purposes. If you're taking this music and using it for your high school line or actual performance, this is going to be a while different ball of wax.

On the second prong, it's a bit iffy -- because most court cases deal with literary works... my area of focus is criminal law, not copyright law, though I do have a friend who deals primarily with this type of thing, so I may try to grab his ear when he comes off of vacation. The gist primarily deals with whether the work is fiction or non-fiction as how it pertains to being copyrightable (e.g. they don't want people copyrighting common-sense facts... imagine someone copyrighting an eggbeater, for instance) and whether the work has or has not been published.

With the third prong of the test, it's how much of the work we're actually using -- in the case of exercises, we're using the whole thing or, technically 1/3 or 1/4 of the work if we're just using the snare or the tenor staff to learn. Case history has gone either way on this, so it's hard to say how this would go.

Finally, the last factor relates to the original authors' ability to exploit his own work. My personal opinion (see below for disclaimer), is going specifically towards the first prong in that folks are using it for personal, nonprofit education and wouldn't have purchased the work at all for this purpose, especially since many of the users of this forum are high school children who cannot afford the $600 Finale Software nor the $200 Virtual Drumline.

That being said, if you're taking the work and using it on your line to perform, than you seriously do need to pay for it.

Disclaimer: Though I have had legal training, I am not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to play one on television, although I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:35 pm



the moral of the story that murray was trying to convey is this: before you pass stuff along to other people (actual copies or transcriptions), consider how that might impact the livelihood of the author of said work. like he said, a lot of these guys make their living off writing this stuff, so you should respect that. sure there are gray areas, but err on the side of caution. and until we KNOW that the specific author is ok with transcriptions being posted, don't do it. remember, these are the same guys you ask to autograph your sticks, so show them some respect as the hard working arrangers and composers that they are.


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:48 pm



Wow!

It's been a while since I have spent much time perusing forum posts. I had forgotten how quickly topics blow out into all sorts of funny tangents.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and comments thus far. Although my main goal in the original post was to curtail the blatant and outright illegal trading of copyrighted material that seemed to be condoned by so many users, I thought it would be enlightening to some to know that intellectual property, such as a musical composition, is actually a real thing. While not as tangible as something you can hold in your hand, it is still offered protections by law.

Someone drew the analogy of a novel that someone else transcribes. If you were the original novelist, would you feel OK if someone else mimicked your work and posted it somewhere where anyone could read it? Even if it weren't transcribed verbatim, let's say, but it still encompassed all the original intent? Maybe you would, and maybe you wouldn't. There are different points of view. But at the very least, I think it seems reasonable and courteous to ask the person whose work you are copying if they're OK with you posting it, and for what purpose.

Not to mention, it is the law that permission is required before an arrangement (a.k.a. derivative work, transcription) can be made. If you're doing transcriptions for your own amusement, edification, etc., then you probably don't have to worry about the snare music cops breaking down your door and hauling you away, screaming into the night. But if you feel the need to show the world writ large what you have created—by posting it on an open forum—and it's based on someone else's intellectual property, then a perfunctory "Hey, um, do you mind if I post this transcription of the snare part from your piece "The Beezles of Ballwater" on this forum?" is appropriate.

The issue of freely posting transcriptions is more ethical than commercial. In come cases where pieces are already offered for sale, than yeah, it's commercial. Outside of that circumstance, I'd place it in the realm of ethics. To those who would read any of this as some mean guy trying to stifle everyone else's creative energy, please read again more slowly. And to those with unbridled creative musical energy, go forth and create something....new!

Thanks for reading.

Sincerely,
Murray Gusseck
Tapspace Publications—Co-founder
Sincerely,
Murray Gusseck
Tapspace Publications—Co-founder


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:22 pm



Thank you very much for clarifying, Mr. Gusseck; I apologize if I sounded belligerent before. I appreciate the rights that composers have toward their work, and I agree that people, ideally, should ask before posting arrangements of works.

The main problem I see in this is pragmaticism. Were every single person to want to transcribe a piece to contact the author, then the author could quickly become overwhelmed by so many requests. As the same time, even a few requests for the same piece repeatedly could become a large nuisance.

I transcribe a lot; Limeaway transcribes a lot; daboone transcribes a lot; a lot or people transcribe a lot. All I'm saying is that it would be am immense hassle for, on a case-by-case basis, each one of us to ask to post a transcription of a piece on a forum. Even if we were denied, then you (the authors) would be beseiged by requests to post the work, as more and more people transcribed it independently. It would simply be much more convenient and expedient to not have to worry about this sort of thing.

I understand that excerpts from shows are available for sale online; the problem is that not every excerpt from every show is online. For example, this very forum transcribed the Rhythm X 2009 snare book. That wasn't online. As a result, many (read: all) of the forum got an opportunity to learn an advanced piece of music, and have fun doing it, and learn new things about orchestration and rhythmic interpretations (17:16? Really?).

I agree that the trading of downloadable music on the forum was not good. It was outright ignorance toward the rights of the composers. However, no matter how grudgingly, one must admit that it was a good way for people to be exposed to new things, such as 13th Hour or Lil' Sumpin' Sumpin', that they would otherwise never have seen.

I suppose the reason I have such a big problem understanding this is that I haven't ever been on the other end of it. Still, personally, I would take it as an immense compliment that people were taking the time to transcribe my work and learn it for themselves; after all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:31 pm



1. How will you be able to tell that you were allowed to transcribe something? Like what do you need in order to do so. Ex. A Letter, Signature, physically go to the composer, etc...

2. Has many drum corps composers have a decrease in income due to people transcribing music? If so, is it alot?

3. How can we contact corps composers?


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:35 pm



A lot of us on the site are using the excerpts as practice. Exercise. Preparation for our own time in corps. And i agree with bltsponge.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:46 pm



iDrum wrote:1. How will you be able to tell that you were allowed to transcribe something? Like what do you need in order to do so. Ex. A Letter, Signature, physically go to the composer, etc...

2. Has many drum corps composers have a decrease in income due to people transcribing music? If so, is it alot?

3. How can we contact corps composers?
1) email permission is the easiest way

2) hard to say

3) email
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:54 pm



Tapspace wrote: . . . But if you feel the need to show the world writ large what you have created—by posting it on an open forum—and it's based on someone else's intellectual property, then a perfunctory "Hey, um, do you mind if I post this transcription of the snare part from your piece "The Beezles of Ballwater" on this forum?" is appropriate.
Sorry to be off topic, but am i the only one who would love to see this published? :P
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:16 pm



To answer someone's question about how to display that permission was granted, that can be specific to different authors or composers. In the publishing world, you will often see "Permission to Arrange" written next to the original author's credit and copyright info. You would also see an arranger credit.

Also, just so everyone knows, the topic of battery books for either DCI or WGI is a sticky one. It's not always clear who ultimately controls the rights to the arrangements. After all, individual drum corps or organizations hire percussion arrangers to compose new music (arrange? compose?) to fit into other arrangements of a 3rd party's intellectual property, for which PTA rights also have to be granted. Is the percussion arranger a paid consultant? Work for Hire? Does he/she own the arrangement? Or does the drum corps own the arrangement, having acquired the official rights to make the arrangement in the first place? Or does DCI or WGI, having paid drum corps to compete in for-profit shows?

I'm definitely not an expert here, and am only familiar with issues that affect me in various ways in my role as part of a small publishing company and as someone who also arranges or writes percussion music. I bring this up just as food for thought.

Sincerely,
Murray Gusseck
Tapspace Publications—Co-founder
Sincerely,
Murray Gusseck
Tapspace Publications—Co-founder


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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:35 pm



Tapspace wrote:Is the percussion arranger a paid consultant? Work for Hire? Does he/she own the arrangement? Or does the drum corps own the arrangement, having acquired the official rights to make the arrangement in the first place? Or does DCI or WGI, having paid drum corps to compete in for-profit shows?
If it's done smartly, the details of who ultimately owns the works, usage rights and licensing are laid out in a contract that the arranger/composer signs with the corps. Smartly being, an organization who actually has the funds and foresight to prepare the legal document and has the arranger/composer sign it. I know there are many organization: corps, indoor lines and universities that hire techs and writers specifying only details regarding service and financial remuneration... in those cases, the rights remain with the individual.

So, guys... if you decide to go the route of seeking to obtain permission from the writers, be sure to include details regarding how you plan on using it. If you have a video and you want to try to transcribe it, let them know that's the plan and it's for you and a few of your friends to try and learn to become better players. Make it clear that you're not planning any public performances with it and maybe (just maybe) they'll have a copy in PDF that they'll shoot you instead of having you try to figure it out on your own.
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:17 pm



I have transcribed a few things that are posted on this forum. I helped out with some of the Rhythm X, 2009 book. I did a fair amount of The Cadets 2005 show and a few licks form 2006 and 2007. I recently transcribed much of Carolina Crown's 2009 snare book. I usually only transcribe something when I am asked to, or if I see something that I know is wrong.

Using transcriptions as an audition piece makes more sense to me that just ramming notes like a mad man. Sure ramming notes for 45-60 seconds shows that you have hands, but I have met many individuals with this ability that can't read music or even play something "musical". I believe that playing an excerpt for an audition shows the caption head, arranger, or whoever may be doing your audition that you took the time to learn something. It also shows them that you can handle their writing in a way.

I have several actual (battery and full percussion) scores at home of entire shows. Some are .pdf and some are paper, but I have not posted them because they were given to me as a result of marching or auditioning and keeping in touch with the staff.

In some cases, it is near impossible to get a hold of show music. Sure we can get all the exercises we want for cash or free depending on how they are made available, but show music is different.

Lets be honest how often have we seen a battery, pit, or percussion ensemble's show music for sale or at the very least even advertised for sale from the corps or arranger? The instances are very few and far between.

In reality there are 9 snare drummers that are provided with the music. In some cases the music is sent out in score format to the entire battery. Aside from those 19-25 performers the arranger, tech staff, and corps director probably possess it bringing the grand total of people to 25-32 that have the true material. After the performers learn the music, many of them simply lose track of where the paper or digital copies went, and they are the ones that are most approachable by newcomers. And that approachability is only if you happen to know their name (facebook), or have their e-mail, or in the rare case actually know them. This leaves the staff. Their names are easily accessible but they may or may not have a facebook account that shows up in the search, their e-mail addresses aren't always readily available, and come off as the least approachable people to newcomers because of their "status".

From my experiences I have thankfully come in personal contact with many of those individuals, so approachability has never been an issue for me. However I prefer the the challenge of transcribing. It is a great educational tool. I can honestly say that I became a much better reader by transcribing not by practicing reading.

I learned what a 16th note triplet was my freshmen year of high school playing bass. Buying some exercises, transcribing some show music, and absorbing all of the rudiment exercises that were available on VicFirth.com were totally invaluable to my growth as a self taught player for my first 2 years in the marching percussion world. Before my first DCI audition, I only had 6 drum lessons. If it wasn't for all the self teaching and transcribing that I did, I would have not marched the 2008 season.

Even after 4 years of high school and 2 years of corps, I feel like I gain a better understating of the music and rhythms after transcribing. Sometimes I feel like I have a better understanding of things that I personally transcribed and committed to memory rather than simply learned at corps, band or indoor.

As far as sharing transcribed works (that are not being currently sold), I am all for it. If Paul Rennick other arrangers make their arrangements available, I can say that I would much rather spend $40.00 the snare parts to a show that I want to learn then spend hours nitpicking though videos and audio files.

...just my two cents on the issue.
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brsnare308 Offline
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:39 pm



Just read the topic about transcription permission. The only people that see a problem with any of this are those who use Tapspace. Coincidence..... I think not...
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madchops Offline
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Re: Illegal Trading

Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:45 pm



brsnare308 wrote:Just read the topic about transcription permission. The only people that see a problem with any of this are those who use Tapspace. Coincidence..... I think not...

and the US government


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