Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

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Madjical Offline
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Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:48 am



My apologies if there is already a thread on the matter (pun intended) but I just find this topic to be one of the most intriguing when it comes to astrodynamics. I would love to hear some opinions, since it is an extremely open ended theory right now. All opinions welcome!


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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 11:38 am



I'm not nearly educated enough to have a valid opinion..but this greatly interests me too
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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:58 am



Kaitou wrote:I'm not nearly educated enough to have a valid opinion..but this greatly interests me too
I am in the same boat. I wish i could truly understand the nuts and bolts of this stuff, but I failed college algebra 3 times before i passed with a D...I will let the scientists do the work, and just read about it and be awestruck by the possibilities
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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:42 pm



I've read a few of Neil DeGrasse Tyson's books, as well as Taylor and Wheeler's Introduction to General Relativity...it's all very interesting, but gets immensely complex. I could write my opinion on here, and what I think is happening in the cosmos, but it would take me a few hours to type it up.

Instead, I'll give the reader's digest version!

It all starts with that guy, Newton. The one that invented calculus, and laws of gravity, and laws of optics, then entered his mid twenties. Nothing short of mind blowing. He had the theory of gravity. You know, f=G[(mM)/(r^2)] and all that stuff, but he couldn't explain why. Enter stage right, Einstein, and his totally bitchin theory of relativity. Relativity is a whole new ball game that deserves a different thread entirely, but for this short version, relativity helped prove the existence of black holes. IMAGINE that space is two dimensional, with absolutely no mass. A piece of cloth is the universe, and absolutely nothing exists in it. Imagine your piece of cloth is suspended perfectly. Now drop a pebble on it. The cloth bends in all directions, adding a z axis. (Let's just say the cloth was infinitely thin, for all you geeks out there that were about to argue that last statement.) The pebble warped the cloth. This is how the universe works. Space and time are your x and y, add mass, you have a z component that warps them. Just a shred of relativity. Okay, so that happened, now the black hole part.

We'll start with time. For all intents and purposes, time exists. (I fully understand that you can argue time does not exist, and that it is simply a sequence of events with no measurement being attached to it. You say tomato, I say time exists right now.) So, with relativity in mind, time can slow down.

This goes into the properties of light. I stole this next passage. So, kudos to UCSD.

"Twins Bill and Jill, born within minutes of each other, take differing career paths. Jill becomes an astronaut and Bill becomes a ground-based astronomer. On their 21st birthday Jill sets out on a space mission to Aldebaran, 32 light years away. Travelling at 99.5% of the speed of light, Jill measures a time of 3.2 years for her trip to Aldebaran and another 3.2 years for her return. (Incideltally, while she is travelling near the speed of light she also sees the distance to Aldebaran contracted to a mere 3.2 light years.) Bill finds that it takes her 32 years and 2 months for each leg. Upon Jill's return, she is 27 while her sibling is 85! Bizarre as these effects appear to us slow moving mortals, relativistic time dilation has been repeatedly confirmed in high energy particle accelerators, where particles travel near the speed of light, and by atomic clock on supersonic aircraft.

A similar process occurs in the presence of strong gravity; a timekeeper in a strong gravitational field will measure a slower time than one in the absence of gravity. It is not just clocks, by the way, all physical processes: clocks ticking (however they measure their ticks), hearts beating, aging, etc., must slow down, but the only one who notices is the distant timekeeper. Everything seems "normal" to the person measuring the duration of events in his own frame of reference. Light waves travelling past the sun are slowed down by this time dilation by a small but measurable amount. In 197X the Viking Mars Lander performed the initial confirming experiment of gravitational time dilation by relaying radio signals back to earth from the Martian surface on the other side of the solar system. Although the effects of the intervening solar wind complicate the experiment, NASA scientists demonstrated clearly that the radio signals took longer on their round trip by just the amount predicted by the predicted slowing of time. "

Hope that made some sense. I think it does a good job at explaining how time can slow. But imagine something that travels faster than light (300,000 km/s...I think, haven't done astrophysics/dynamics in a while.) It exists, in the gravity of a black hole. We know black holes exist based off of how strong their gravitation is in the universe. Black hole got its name because light can't reflect off of it for our eyes to see. Anything that goes into a black hole has 0% chance of coming out....so far. So, time slows down at a certain point of the black hole. The light story; travel at the speed of light, or extremely close, time will slow. You're now under the gravitational acceleration of something that EXCEEDS the speed of light. Bummer. Time gets real slow, relative to someone watching. So let's say you threw a premier snare drum into the hole, along with an indestructable watch. That snare drum snapped infinity amount of times in such a short amount of time, it could not be measured. That would be from the snare drums point of view. But for the astronaut watching it, the series slows down, and the watch's time gets slower and slower.

Time warp due to gravity. Gravity due to relativity. Relativity due to brilliance. Amazing.

But, matter cannot be created or destroyed in our universe. So where does all this matter go that falls into black holes? Speculation on white holes: begin.

It's a very rough topic that nobody can speculate on. Some say it's a wormhole to somewhere else in the universe, some say it's a portal to a completely different universe. Nobody knows for sure. This is what I'm extremely curious about and want opinions on.



NOTE: if any of this information seems like it might be false, or incorrect, or misleading, please tell me! I haven't picked up an astronomy book in years, so this might be rough around the edges.


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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:47 pm



For anyone that read that, remember, reader's digest version. I skipped a lottttt of stuff in there.


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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:38 pm



Leibniz also invented Calculus :P..speed of light is 299,792.458 kilometers per second if you want to be more exact haha

Is another theory on black holes that the matter gets condensed to an infinitesimally small point in the center..increasing the density, mass, and gravity of the black hole?

Thanks for typing that up btw
TA67 wrote:She walked over to me and said "I formally request that you turn my body into a playground of lust and wonder, o burly man." To which I agreed. I laid her down on the desk, and well...we both got As for the entire semester as a result.
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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:42 pm



Madjical wrote:I've read a few of Neil DeGrasse Tyson's books, as well as Taylor and Wheeler's Introduction to General Relativity...it's all very interesting, but gets immensely complex. I could write my opinion on here, and what I think is happening in the cosmos, but it would take me a few hours to type it up.

Instead, I'll give the reader's digest version!

It all starts with that guy, Newton. The one that invented calculus, and laws of gravity, and laws of optics, then entered his mid twenties. Nothing short of mind blowing. He had the theory of gravity. You know, f=G[(mM)/(r^2)] and all that stuff, but he couldn't explain why. Enter stage right, Einstein, and his totally *beep* theory of relativity. Relativity is a whole new ball game that deserves a different thread entirely, but for this short version, relativity helped prove the existence of black holes. IMAGINE that space is two dimensional, with absolutely no mass. A piece of cloth is the universe, and absolutely nothing exists in it. Imagine your piece of cloth is suspended perfectly. Now drop a pebble on it. The cloth bends in all directions, adding a z axis. (Let's just say the cloth was infinitely thin, for all you geeks out there that were about to argue that last statement.) The pebble warped the cloth. This is how the universe works. Space and time are your x and y, add mass, you have a z component that warps them. Just a shred of relativity. Okay, so that happened, now the black hole part.

We'll start with time. For all intents and purposes, time exists. (I fully understand that you can argue time does not exist, and that it is simply a sequence of events with no measurement being attached to it. You say tomato, I say time exists right now.) So, with relativity in mind, time can slow down.

This goes into the properties of light. I stole this next passage. So, kudos to UCSD.

"Twins Bill and Jill, born within minutes of each other, take differing career paths. Jill becomes an astronaut and Bill becomes a ground-based astronomer. On their 21st birthday Jill sets out on a space mission to Aldebaran, 32 light years away. Travelling at 99.5% of the speed of light, Jill measures a time of 3.2 years for her trip to Aldebaran and another 3.2 years for her return. (Incideltally, while she is travelling near the speed of light she also sees the distance to Aldebaran contracted to a mere 3.2 light years.) Bill finds that it takes her 32 years and 2 months for each leg. Upon Jill's return, she is 27 while her sibling is 85! Bizarre as these effects appear to us slow moving mortals, relativistic time dilation has been repeatedly confirmed in high energy particle accelerators, where particles travel near the speed of light, and by atomic clock on supersonic aircraft.

A similar process occurs in the presence of strong gravity; a timekeeper in a strong gravitational field will measure a slower time than one in the absence of gravity. It is not just clocks, by the way, all physical processes: clocks ticking (however they measure their ticks), hearts beating, aging, etc., must slow down, but the only one who notices is the distant timekeeper. Everything seems "normal" to the person measuring the duration of events in his own frame of reference. Light waves travelling past the sun are slowed down by this time dilation by a small but measurable amount. In 197X the Viking Mars Lander performed the initial confirming experiment of gravitational time dilation by relaying radio signals back to earth from the Martian surface on the other side of the solar system. Although the effects of the intervening solar wind complicate the experiment, NASA scientists demonstrated clearly that the radio signals took longer on their round trip by just the amount predicted by the predicted slowing of time. "

Hope that made some sense. I think it does a good job at explaining how time can slow. But imagine something that travels faster than light (300,000 km/s...I think, haven't done astrophysics/dynamics in a while.) It exists, in the gravity of a black hole. We know black holes exist based off of how strong their gravitation is in the universe. Black hole got its name because light can't reflect off of it for our eyes to see. Anything that goes into a black hole has 0% chance of coming out....so far. So, time slows down at a certain point of the black hole. The light story; travel at the speed of light, or extremely close, time will slow. You're now under the gravitational acceleration of something that EXCEEDS the speed of light. Bummer. Time gets real slow, relative to someone watching. So let's say you threw a premier snare drum into the hole, along with an indestructable watch. That snare drum snapped infinity amount of times in such a short amount of time, it could not be measured. That would be from the snare drums point of view. But for the astronaut watching it, the series slows down, and the watch's time gets slower and slower.

Time warp due to gravity. Gravity due to relativity. Relativity due to brilliance. Amazing.

But, matter cannot be created or destroyed in our universe. So where does all this matter go that falls into black holes? Speculation on white holes: begin.

It's a very rough topic that nobody can speculate on. Some say it's a wormhole to somewhere else in the universe, some say it's a portal to a completely different universe. Nobody knows for sure. This is what I'm extremely curious about and want opinions on.



NOTE: if any of this information seems like it might be false, or incorrect, or misleading, please tell me! I haven't picked up an astronomy book in years, so this might be rough around the edges.
See...this sh$t is wicked cool...and I can grasp some of it, but you get into the formulas and math and i shut down...damned brain. Madj...are there any books to get into that would explain it omn a laymans term...like Relativity for Dummies?
Iv'e got sXe!!!!
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Madjical Offline
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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:17 am



Hmmmm, not that I know of...

I'm sure there are tons of youtube videos and free podcast lectures on iTunes that can give some good info about relativity. The problem is it gets really thick when you get down to the specifics. But I've never seen a book that just has the general background.

Same thing with black holes, a lot of books, but they're all really detailed. I'm sure if you looked, you can find one for a decent price that isn't too over the top though.


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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:25 am



Kaitou wrote:Leibniz also invented Calculus :P..speed of light is 299,792.458 kilometers per second if you want to be more exact haha

Is another theory on black holes that the matter gets condensed to an infinitesimally small point in the center..increasing the density, mass, and gravity of the black hole?

Thanks for typing that up btw
I got into a super heated debate with my teacher in high school on who invented calculus, Leibniz or Newton. I think it was a stalemate.

My static equilibrium professr ALWAYS docked a point off my exams for using 9.8 for the acceleration of gravity on Earth, and not 9.81. I'm known for rounding at the worst times.

Yes! That is a theory. I went home yesterday after work and dusted a few books off. Some scientists think that there might be an infinitely small singularity. So it would be like a cone-ish type shape, the singularity being the tip of the cone. I personally don't believe in the infinitely small point, just because I think there are limits to everything. Matter can't be created or destroyed, so this matter is approaching 0, in theory. It will get extremely close to zero, even 1e-1,000,000 or smaller. So that just makes the density explode, and the gravity accelerate.

It's just difficult for me to imagine. It's like having a definite integral from 0 to infinity, but having a definite area under the curve. It's really difficult to wrap your mind around.


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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:13 am



Madjical wrote:
Kaitou wrote:Leibniz also invented Calculus :P..speed of light is 299,792.458 kilometers per second if you want to be more exact haha

Is another theory on black holes that the matter gets condensed to an infinitesimally small point in the center..increasing the density, mass, and gravity of the black hole?

Thanks for typing that up btw
I got into a super heated debate with my teacher in high school on who invented calculus, Leibniz or Newton. I think it was a stalemate.

My static equilibrium professr ALWAYS docked a point off my exams for using 9.8 for the acceleration of gravity on Earth, and not 9.81. I'm known for rounding at the worst times.

Yes! That is a theory. I went home yesterday after work and dusted a few books off. Some scientists think that there might be an infinitely small singularity. So it would be like a cone-ish type shape, the singularity being the tip of the cone. I personally don't believe in the infinitely small point, just because I think there are limits to everything. Matter can't be created or destroyed, so this matter is approaching 0, in theory. It will get extremely close to zero, even 1e-1,000,000 or smaller. So that just makes the density explode, and the gravity accelerate.

It's just difficult for me to imagine. It's like having a definite integral from 0 to infinity, but having a definite area under the curve. It's really difficult to wrap your mind around.
Well, technically... matter can be created and destroyed.
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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:27 am



ottomagne wrote:
Madjical wrote:
Kaitou wrote:Leibniz also invented Calculus :P..speed of light is 299,792.458 kilometers per second if you want to be more exact haha

Is another theory on black holes that the matter gets condensed to an infinitesimally small point in the center..increasing the density, mass, and gravity of the black hole?

Thanks for typing that up btw
I got into a super heated debate with my teacher in high school on who invented calculus, Leibniz or Newton. I think it was a stalemate.

My static equilibrium professr ALWAYS docked a point off my exams for using 9.8 for the acceleration of gravity on Earth, and not 9.81. I'm known for rounding at the worst times.

Yes! That is a theory. I went home yesterday after work and dusted a few books off. Some scientists think that there might be an infinitely small singularity. So it would be like a cone-ish type shape, the singularity being the tip of the cone. I personally don't believe in the infinitely small point, just because I think there are limits to everything. Matter can't be created or destroyed, so this matter is approaching 0, in theory. It will get extremely close to zero, even 1e-1,000,000 or smaller. So that just makes the density explode, and the gravity accelerate.

It's just difficult for me to imagine. It's like having a definite integral from 0 to infinity, but having a definite area under the curve. It's really difficult to wrap your mind around.
Well, technically... matter can be created and destroyed.
It can be destroyed in the sense that there will be energy released, or created vice versa. But you cannot create or destroy mass without some sort of reaction.


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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:33 am



Madjical wrote: I got into a super heated debate with my teacher in high school on who invented calculus, Leibniz or Newton. I think it was a stalemate.

My static equilibrium professr ALWAYS docked a point off my exams for using 9.8 for the acceleration of gravity on Earth, and not 9.81. I'm known for rounding at the worst times.

Yes! That is a theory. I went home yesterday after work and dusted a few books off. Some scientists think that there might be an infinitely small singularity. So it would be like a cone-ish type shape, the singularity being the tip of the cone. I personally don't believe in the infinitely small point, just because I think there are limits to everything. Matter can't be created or destroyed, so this matter is approaching 0, in theory. It will get extremely close to zero, even 1e-1,000,000 or smaller. So that just makes the density explode, and the gravity accelerate.

It's just difficult for me to imagine. It's like having a definite integral from 0 to infinity, but having a definite area under the curve. It's really difficult to wrap your mind around.
I've always felt they both invented it

I've always rounded..now when they ask for significant figures or tell me to truncate I always screw those up..I hate truncation with a passion..

The matter wouldn't be approaching 0..its volume would be approaching zero and its mass would be ever increasing. There still would be the same amount of matter..it would just be infinitely compacted making its density approach infinity (d= m/v) and as its mass grew so did its gravitational pull (horribly constructed sentence..lol)..the process would then feed back into itself..more mass = more gravity = suck more matter in. It seems to make sense to me..given a strong enough gravitational force, the atoms would be pulled tighter and tighter together until the "singularity" was formed.

That would mind*beep* me too..I love calculus haha
TA67 wrote:She walked over to me and said "I formally request that you turn my body into a playground of lust and wonder, o burly man." To which I agreed. I laid her down on the desk, and well...we both got As for the entire semester as a result.
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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:08 am



Madjical wrote:
ottomagne wrote:
Madjical wrote: I got into a super heated debate with my teacher in high school on who invented calculus, Leibniz or Newton. I think it was a stalemate.

My static equilibrium professr ALWAYS docked a point off my exams for using 9.8 for the acceleration of gravity on Earth, and not 9.81. I'm known for rounding at the worst times.

Yes! That is a theory. I went home yesterday after work and dusted a few books off. Some scientists think that there might be an infinitely small singularity. So it would be like a cone-ish type shape, the singularity being the tip of the cone. I personally don't believe in the infinitely small point, just because I think there are limits to everything. Matter can't be created or destroyed, so this matter is approaching 0, in theory. It will get extremely close to zero, even 1e-1,000,000 or smaller. So that just makes the density explode, and the gravity accelerate.

It's just difficult for me to imagine. It's like having a definite integral from 0 to infinity, but having a definite area under the curve. It's really difficult to wrap your mind around.
Well, technically... matter can be created and destroyed.
It can be destroyed in the sense that there will be energy released, or created vice versa. But you cannot create or destroy mass without some sort of reaction.
Well, yeah. It's just a conversion from matter to energy. That's why I said technically haha.
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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:25 am



Kaitou wrote:
Madjical wrote: I got into a super heated debate with my teacher in high school on who invented calculus, Leibniz or Newton. I think it was a stalemate.

My static equilibrium professr ALWAYS docked a point off my exams for using 9.8 for the acceleration of gravity on Earth, and not 9.81. I'm known for rounding at the worst times.

Yes! That is a theory. I went home yesterday after work and dusted a few books off. Some scientists think that there might be an infinitely small singularity. So it would be like a cone-ish type shape, the singularity being the tip of the cone. I personally don't believe in the infinitely small point, just because I think there are limits to everything. Matter can't be created or destroyed, so this matter is approaching 0, in theory. It will get extremely close to zero, even 1e-1,000,000 or smaller. So that just makes the density explode, and the gravity accelerate.

It's just difficult for me to imagine. It's like having a definite integral from 0 to infinity, but having a definite area under the curve. It's really difficult to wrap your mind around.
I've always felt they both invented it

I've always rounded..now when they ask for significant figures or tell me to truncate I always screw those up..I hate truncation with a passion..

The matter wouldn't be approaching 0..its volume would be approaching zero and its mass would be ever increasing. There still would be the same amount of matter..it would just be infinitely compacted making its density approach infinity (d= m/v) and as its mass grew so did its gravitational pull (horribly constructed sentence..lol)..the process would then feed back into itself..more mass = more gravity = suck more matter in. It seems to make sense to me..given a strong enough gravitational force, the atoms would be pulled tighter and tighter together until the "singularity" was formed.

That would mind*beep* me too..I love calculus haha
Yeah, I should have been more specific. For Earth to become a singularity, we would have to compress it down to the size of a centimeter or something like that.


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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 12:06 pm



Madjical wrote: Yeah, I should have been more specific. For Earth to become a singularity, we would have to compress it down to the size of a centimeter or something like that.
Which would be entirely possible given enough pressure I believe..for me the whole black hole -(matter)> white hole thing just doesn't really jive well in my mind..but all the different theories are possible..I love how just mind blowing the universe is..
TA67 wrote:She walked over to me and said "I formally request that you turn my body into a playground of lust and wonder, o burly man." To which I agreed. I laid her down on the desk, and well...we both got As for the entire semester as a result.
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Re: Black Holes, White Holes, Time Warp

Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 12:08 am



This type of stuff really makes me want to take a class on theoretical science in college.. Just boggles the mind.
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