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PogoPantheon Offline
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love

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:04 am



has anyone ever experienced love? if so, what would you describe it as? And i am not talking about platonic love, i'm talking about actual agape love for another human being, complete and utter altruistic passion and the feeling of almost being that person and having the complete confidence that person feels the same. the looking into someone's eyes and getting that strange feeling of seeing something even deeper inside yourself.

on another hand, if you have not, do you believe that love exists? if not, why?
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Re: love

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:43 am



Man, this is tough. I love my children. I used to love my wife. When I look in my girls eyes, ages 5 and 3, I see love. Even if they are bad, or even if they're mad because I had to discipline them. That's love. When I first met my wife, I thought I found love. Over the years, we have grown apart. People change, as do their needs. I'm pretty sure the only reason we stay together is for our children. Is that the right thing to do? Don't know. What I do know is we both come from broken homes, and we will sacrifice our happiness to give our girls stability and unconditional love. We don't want them to choose if they love mommy or daddy more. Dang, sorry this is a buzzkill, and I generally flame posts like this, but you have struck a cord. How about this. I hope you find love. The kind that lasts. You have to work at it though. My wife and I didn't. I believe the only thing I've ever found is lust. Maybe that's why I'm a grumpy old man with no chops. I can play triplet roll passages ok though. Best wishes Pogo.


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Re: love

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:52 am



jodycoln wrote:Man, this is tough. I love my children. I used to love my wife. When I look in my girls eyes, ages 5 and 3, I see love. Even if they are bad, or even if they're mad because I had to discipline them. That's love. When I first met my wife, I thought I found love. Over the years, we have grown apart. People change, as do their needs. I'm pretty sure the only reason we stay together is for our children. Is that the right thing to do? Don't know. What I do know is we both come from broken homes, and we will sacrifice our happiness to give our girls stability and unconditional love. We don't want them to choose if they love mommy or daddy more. Dang, sorry this is a buzzkill, and I generally flame posts like this, but you have struck a cord. How about this. I hope you find love. The kind that lasts. You have to work at it though. My wife and I didn't. I believe the only thing I've ever found is lust. Maybe that's why I'm a grumpy old man with no chops. I can play triplet roll passages ok though. Best wishes Pogo.
Gotta love the turn around here. Great post.

I don't think can adequately describe love. Love is an experience; a jouney - to be told about it doesn't do it justice. You just have to set sail and find it for yourself to truly know what it's like.
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TVOham Offline
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Re: love

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:38 pm



I don't believe in love.
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Re: love

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:53 pm



It varies from person to person. I don't think anyone can love someone else the same way. I have love for my family and some close friends. I would give my life for any of them. They mean more to me than anything else.
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Re: love

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 1:32 pm



I think love is one of the few things humans will never understand. It's why countless songs have been made about it, countless movies have been filmed about it, countless books have been written about it, and countless passive-agressive facebook statuses have been made by teenage girls about it. Falling in love is relatively easy-staying in love is very hard. It's complicated.


Andymac Offline
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Re: love

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:50 pm



TVOham wrote:I don't believe in love.
Serious question, if your girlfriend tells you that she loves you, what would you say to her?


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Re: love

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:27 pm



Andymac wrote:
TVOham wrote:I don't believe in love.
Serious question, if your girlfriend tells you that she loves you, what would you say to her?
This may be a great soap opera. We need to put him in a really Christian community, where he goes to like, Catholic school, and gets a girlfriend. We'd get so many viewers.
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Re: love

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:53 pm



Andymac wrote:
TVOham wrote:I don't believe in love.
Serious question, if your girlfriend tells you that she loves you, what would you say to her?
I can only answer for myself.

"I'm chemically infatuated with you...", gets them every time. :wink:


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Re: love

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:53 am



Andymac wrote:
TVOham wrote:I don't believe in love.
Serious question, if your girlfriend tells you that she loves you, what would you say to her?

She frequently does and I acknowledge the gesture by returning an "I love you too", but I do not MEAN that I "love" her. It's simply part of the evolution of language. I say I love her because I care about her deeply, but the feeling of love is no more than chemicals in your head. The same chemicals that are in the head of a bear-mother for her cubs.
Love is just a word. The chemicals that cause love have evolved to make us want to reproduce so that the species continues.
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Re: love

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:27 am



TVOham wrote:
Andymac wrote:
TVOham wrote:I don't believe in love.
Serious question, if your girlfriend tells you that she loves you, what would you say to her?

She frequently does and I acknowledge the gesture by returning an "I love you too", but I do not MEAN that I "love" her. It's simply part of the evolution of language. I say I love her because I care about her deeply, but the feeling of love is no more than chemicals in your head. The same chemicals that are in the head of a bear-mother for her cubs.
Love is just a word. The chemicals that cause love have evolved to make us want to reproduce so that the species continues.
That makes sense. I just found it interesting how someone who didn't believe in love could love someone.

On a side note, I think pablodurando's response may work better. :wink:


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Re: love

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:25 am



I'm probably not in a good spot to be believed, since I'm only 15. but I've been through a couple relationships where I though I genuinely loved the other person, but I think, and I am almost certain, that I have found love, and PogoPantheon put it in words perfectly, (in my opinion), by saying, "The looking into someone's eyes and getting that strange feeling of seeing something even deeper inside yourself.". I had that exact moment with the person that I feel that I love, and we both felt that way. When you look into someone's eyes and you don't just "see" them, you FEEL them. When you can look into someone's eyes and know exactly how they feel about you, and how they feel about the relationship between both of you. But the only reason I am sort of skeptical about how we feel about each other is that like any other theory, (that probably sounds really shallow...), is that it needs to be tested. But if you knew me personally, you would know that I don't thrown words like "love" around like they mean nothing, but as of now, I can whole-heartily say that I love this person. As for what TVOham said about what love is scientifically. How people feel about love between feelings and science is like how people feel about the creation of the universe, in a religious manner. Is there a God? Did he make the universe? Or was there a "Big bang" and everything just came about. I feel like some things cannot be explained by science, such as how we are here. sure you can put together a crazy line of happenings about how we came to be, but when you think about the chances of all that crazy stuff happening just perfectly, I have a hard time believing it. The same goes for love. But even if it is something scientific that causes it, it is caused for a reason, why speculate on it and ruin it? It is obviously there for a reason, enjoy it, don't question it. Sorry if that got a little off-topic, but that's how I feel, I believe love is real, and you will know it when you come across it.
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TVOham Offline
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Re: love

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:27 pm



padmadness wrote:I'm probably not in a good spot to be believed, since I'm only 15. but I've been through a couple relationships where I though I genuinely loved the other person, but I think, and I am almost certain, that I have found love, and PogoPantheon put it in words perfectly, (in my opinion), by saying, "The looking into someone's eyes and getting that strange feeling of seeing something even deeper inside yourself.". I had that exact moment with the person that I feel that I love, and we both felt that way. When you look into someone's eyes and you don't just "see" them, you FEEL them. When you can look into someone's eyes and know exactly how they feel about you, and how they feel about the relationship between both of you. But the only reason I am sort of skeptical about how we feel about each other is that like any other theory, (that probably sounds really shallow...), is that it needs to be tested. But if you knew me personally, you would know that I don't thrown words like "love" around like they mean nothing, but as of now, I can whole-heartily say that I love this person. As for what TVOham said about what love is scientifically. How people feel about love between feelings and science is like how people feel about the creation of the universe, in a religious manner. Is there a God? Did he make the universe? Or was there a "Big bang" and everything just came about. I feel like some things cannot be explained by science, such as how we are here. sure you can put together a crazy line of happenings about how we came to be, but when you think about the chances of all that crazy stuff happening just perfectly, I have a hard time believing it. The same goes for love. But even if it is something scientific that causes it, it is caused for a reason, why speculate on it and ruin it? It is obviously there for a reason, enjoy it, don't question it. Sorry if that got a little off-topic, but that's how I feel, I believe love is real, and you will know it when you come across it.

I'm not understanding your "love-creation" metaphor.
There really isn't a question in the Science about whether or not Creationism happened. More than 97% of Scientists do not believe it did. So if you're comparing the Big Bang to Creationism then I'd say you're making a false comparison because the two really are incomparable. As far as saying that a crazy line of happenings about how we came to be or whatever you said, well that is true. It IS by a crazy random-chance-like series of events that we came into existence, but that's the beauty of it. We live in a golden age. Billions of years of Biological/Cosmological Evolution to produce a thinking ape and we live in the short glint on time during which it's coming about. What a time to live.
Anyways, back on topic, why do we "speculate (it isn't a speculation if it's been studied and proven true but w/e)" on anything if you're going to make that point? We speculate because we're striving for knowledge.
How do we separate the invisible force "love" from shallow infatuation? How can a 15 year old possibly tell the difference? I know I couldn't when I was 15. You may feel deep inner emotions towards another human being, but do you ever REALLY ultimately "love" them or is it just an inner obsession? Is love just a made up word (since we're making comparisons) just like "faith" is to Religion? As humans/sentient beings, we like to put labels on things like this.
I stand by my initial belief. I don't think "love" exists. I think deep infatuation/care for another's well being does which CAN (refutation to your claim) be explained by Science (specifically neuroscience).
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Re: love

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:44 pm



TVOham wrote:
padmadness wrote:I'm probably not in a good spot to be believed, since I'm only 15. but I've been through a couple relationships where I though I genuinely loved the other person, but I think, and I am almost certain, that I have found love, and PogoPantheon put it in words perfectly, (in my opinion), by saying, "The looking into someone's eyes and getting that strange feeling of seeing something even deeper inside yourself.". I had that exact moment with the person that I feel that I love, and we both felt that way. When you look into someone's eyes and you don't just "see" them, you FEEL them. When you can look into someone's eyes and know exactly how they feel about you, and how they feel about the relationship between both of you. But the only reason I am sort of skeptical about how we feel about each other is that like any other theory, (that probably sounds really shallow...), is that it needs to be tested. But if you knew me personally, you would know that I don't thrown words like "love" around like they mean nothing, but as of now, I can whole-heartily say that I love this person. As for what TVOham said about what love is scientifically. How people feel about love between feelings and science is like how people feel about the creation of the universe, in a religious manner. Is there a God? Did he make the universe? Or was there a "Big bang" and everything just came about. I feel like some things cannot be explained by science, such as how we are here. sure you can put together a crazy line of happenings about how we came to be, but when you think about the chances of all that crazy stuff happening just perfectly, I have a hard time believing it. The same goes for love. But even if it is something scientific that causes it, it is caused for a reason, why speculate on it and ruin it? It is obviously there for a reason, enjoy it, don't question it. Sorry if that got a little off-topic, but that's how I feel, I believe love is real, and you will know it when you come across it.

I'm not understanding your "love-creation" metaphor.
There really isn't a question in the Science about whether or not Creationism happened. More than 97% of Scientists do not believe it did. So if you're comparing the Big Bang to Creationism then I'd say you're making a false comparison because the two really are incomparable. As far as saying that a crazy line of happenings about how we came to be or whatever you said, well that is true. It IS by a crazy random-chance-like series of events that we came into existence, but that's the beauty of it. We live in a golden age. Billions of years of Biological/Cosmological Evolution to produce a thinking ape and we live in the short glint on time during which it's coming about. What a time to live.
Anyways, back on topic, why do we "speculate (it isn't a speculation if it's been studied and proven true but w/e)" on anything if you're going to make that point? We speculate because we're striving for knowledge.
How do we separate the invisible force "love" from shallow infatuation? How can a 15 year old possibly tell the difference? I know I couldn't when I was 15. You may feel deep inner emotions towards another human being, but do you ever REALLY ultimately "love" them or is it just an inner obsession? Is love just a made up word (since we're making comparisons) just like "faith" is to Religion? As humans/sentient beings, we like to put labels on things like this.
I stand by my initial belief. I don't think "love" exists. I think deep infatuation/care for another's well being does which CAN (refutation to your claim) be explained by Science (specifically neuroscience).
I totally understand where you're coming from, and I'm not trying to disprove or persuade in any way, just offering my opinion. I guess love cannot be described simply because it's relative, based on a person's point of view. Perhaps love is one of those things that will go on as undefined.
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Re: love

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:45 pm



I don't think "love" exists. I think deep infatuation/care for another's well being does which CAN (refutation to your claim) be explained by Science (specifically neuroscience).
I disagree, but I think our disagreement is purely semantical. I would argue that a deep caring for another's well being = love. The points you make about brain chemistry etc don't make love any less real imo.

Would you say that happiness / sadness don't exist?
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Re: love

Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:55 pm



snarescience wrote:
I don't think "love" exists. I think deep infatuation/care for another's well being does which CAN (refutation to your claim) be explained by Science (specifically neuroscience).
I disagree, but I think our disagreement is purely semantical. I would argue that a deep caring for another's well being = love. The points you make about brain chemistry etc don't make love any less real imo.

Would you say that happiness / sadness don't exist?
There it is.
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Re: love

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:18 am



snarescience wrote:
I don't think "love" exists. I think deep infatuation/care for another's well being does which CAN (refutation to your claim) be explained by Science (specifically neuroscience).
I disagree, but I think our disagreement is purely semantical. I would argue that a deep caring for another's well being = love. The points you make about brain chemistry etc don't make love any less real imo.

Would you say that happiness / sadness don't exist?

Happiness and sadness are definable emotions, meaning that it's easy to interpret whether you are happy or whether you are sad. If you are happy you are not sad and if you are sad you are not happy.
"love" however is misinterpreted millions of times every day by people across the world. Many a time have I met a friend who swears he/she was in "love" with someone and then turned out to be in a 1 week fling. I think "love" can be broken down into 2 very simple categories; shallow infatuation and simple infatuation. Shallow infatuation would be those (as previously mentioned) who swear they are in love but end up hooking up and then moving on. Plain old infatuation would be those who legitimately think they feel a deep connection with someone (i.e. the long-term relationshipers).

These both have something in common. They make you want to reproduce. It's the very same reason that sexual conduct feels good. It's very genius the way Evolution works.
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Re: love

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:47 pm



TVOham wrote:
snarescience wrote:
I don't think "love" exists. I think deep infatuation/care for another's well being does which CAN (refutation to your claim) be explained by Science (specifically neuroscience).
I disagree, but I think our disagreement is purely semantical. I would argue that a deep caring for another's well being = love. The points you make about brain chemistry etc don't make love any less real imo.

Would you say that happiness / sadness don't exist?

Happiness and sadness are definable emotions, meaning that it's easy to interpret whether you are happy or whether you are sad. If you are happy you are not sad and if you are sad you are not happy.
"love" however is misinterpreted millions of times every day by people across the world. Many a time have I met a friend who swears he/she was in "love" with someone and then turned out to be in a 1 week fling..
just because people misuse the label "love" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If I call a cat a dog, it still exists as a cat. It's just not a dog. So high schoolers who "love" the significant other they've been seeing for a week are just mislabeling what they feel as love, because at that point in their lives they haven't experienced true caring for anybody other than family members, who have a deep caring for their well being. Love. Or brain chemistry. Whatever. The emotion still exists. I can judge whether I love somebody or don't love somebody. I just don't love as many people as I don't love
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Re: love

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:42 pm



hotbeats645 wrote:
TVOham wrote:
snarescience wrote:
I disagree, but I think our disagreement is purely semantical. I would argue that a deep caring for another's well being = love. The points you make about brain chemistry etc don't make love any less real imo.

Would you say that happiness / sadness don't exist?

Happiness and sadness are definable emotions, meaning that it's easy to interpret whether you are happy or whether you are sad. If you are happy you are not sad and if you are sad you are not happy.
"love" however is misinterpreted millions of times every day by people across the world. Many a time have I met a friend who swears he/she was in "love" with someone and then turned out to be in a 1 week fling..
just because people misuse the label "love" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If I call a cat a dog, it still exists as a cat. It's just not a dog. So high schoolers who "love" the significant other they've been seeing for a week are just mislabeling what they feel as love, because at that point in their lives they haven't experienced true caring for anybody other than family members, who have a deep caring for their well being. Love. Or brain chemistry. Whatever. The emotion still exists. I can judge whether I love somebody or don't love somebody. I just don't love as many people as I don't love

That's a horrible analogy. Cats and dogs (as I said earlier about happiness and sadness) are two easily definable things. Love is undefinable. Everyone has a different definition of what "love" is. Everybody feels something different when they "love" someone. If there are infinite feelings/definitions that can describe something with no two being the same then I contest that it does not exist.
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Re: love

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:06 pm



TVOham wrote:
hotbeats645 wrote:
TVOham wrote:

Happiness and sadness are definable emotions, meaning that it's easy to interpret whether you are happy or whether you are sad. If you are happy you are not sad and if you are sad you are not happy.
"love" however is misinterpreted millions of times every day by people across the world. Many a time have I met a friend who swears he/she was in "love" with someone and then turned out to be in a 1 week fling..
just because people misuse the label "love" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If I call a cat a dog, it still exists as a cat. It's just not a dog. So high schoolers who "love" the significant other they've been seeing for a week are just mislabeling what they feel as love, because at that point in their lives they haven't experienced true caring for anybody other than family members, who have a deep caring for their well being. Love. Or brain chemistry. Whatever. The emotion still exists. I can judge whether I love somebody or don't love somebody. I just don't love as many people as I don't love

That's a horrible analogy. Cats and dogs (as I said earlier about happiness and sadness) are two easily definable things. Love is undefinable. Everyone has a different definition of what "love" is. Everybody feels something different when they "love" someone. If there are infinite feelings/definitions that can describe something with no two being the same then I contest that it does not exist.
Just because there are many different definitions for it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are many different shades of blue. (have you ever been in the lowe's paint section?) but we could still call each of those colors blue. So then we could say there are many different types and degrees of love. So why couldn't love be all of those definitions?


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Re: love

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:20 pm



Andymac wrote:
TVOham wrote:
hotbeats645 wrote:
just because people misuse the label "love" doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If I call a cat a dog, it still exists as a cat. It's just not a dog. So high schoolers who "love" the significant other they've been seeing for a week are just mislabeling what they feel as love, because at that point in their lives they haven't experienced true caring for anybody other than family members, who have a deep caring for their well being. Love. Or brain chemistry. Whatever. The emotion still exists. I can judge whether I love somebody or don't love somebody. I just don't love as many people as I don't love

That's a horrible analogy. Cats and dogs (as I said earlier about happiness and sadness) are two easily definable things. Love is undefinable. Everyone has a different definition of what "love" is. Everybody feels something different when they "love" someone. If there are infinite feelings/definitions that can describe something with no two being the same then I contest that it does not exist.
Just because there are many different definitions for it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There are many different shades of blue. (have you ever been in the lowe's paint section?) but we could still call each of those colors blue. So then we could say there are many different types and degrees of love. So why couldn't love be all of those definitions?
I didn't use the word "many". I used the word "infinite".
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Re: love

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:50 pm



I agree with Andymac's explanation. There are infinite shades of blue as well. Just because human emotions are complex / fluid / existing on a continuum does not allow one to dismiss them as not existing.

I think you oversimplify happy and sad as well. It is certainly possible to feel different levels of happiness, and even to feel happy and sad simultameously.

Finally, I feel love for many people that I do not wish to reproduce with. :wink:
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Re: love

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:55 pm



I would like to add that I felt a little weird/reserved telling people I loved them most of my adult life, that is until until I met my wife when I was 23yo or so. She uses the term a LOT and wore me down, and now I tell my wife and son that I love them multiple times a day and I love it. :)
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chops master
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Re: love

Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:47 pm



snarescience wrote:I agree with Andymac's explanation. There are infinite shades of blue as well. Just because human emotions are complex / fluid / existing on a continuum does not allow one to dismiss them as not existing.

I think you oversimplify happy and sad as well. It is certainly possible to feel different levels of happiness, and even to feel happy and sad simultameously.

Finally, I feel love for many people that I do not wish to reproduce with. :wink:

There aren't infinite shades of blue. Eventually it becomes black or white.

Different levels of happiness still = happy.

I'm talking about the overwhelming mis-definition that people put on love (such as the high school drama queen). I would not compare that to "different levels of happiness". I compare that to shallow infatuation.
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