Composition Discussion Thread

post music that you wrote!

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nickstix91 Offline
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:50 pm



anyone else here use any counterpoint when theyre writing?
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:12 pm



Contrapunctus is very interesting, and in percussion (especially marching), I use it all the time.

Melodic and harmonic contrapuntal technique is much more difficult; I'm refraining from using this until I have a greater grasp of music theory.
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nickstix91 Offline
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:50 pm



AWA wrote:Contrapunctus is very interesting, and in percussion (especially marching), I use it all the time.

Melodic and harmonic contrapuntal technique is much more difficult; I'm refraining from using this until I have a greater grasp of music theory.
Ive never thought of using it with non-pitched percussion...how does that work?

I learned counterpoint as a melodic tool. Just recently finished writing a symphonic band piece that I used a lot of counterpoint in. and it's a beautiful thing when you get stuck harmonizing a melody, or even writing a secondary melody.
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:45 pm



nickstix91 wrote:
AWA wrote:Contrapunctus is very interesting, and in percussion (especially marching), I use it all the time.

Melodic and harmonic contrapuntal technique is much more difficult; I'm refraining from using this until I have a greater grasp of music theory.
Ive never thought of using it with non-pitched percussion...how does that work?
You basically create a rhythmic line to counter a previously established motif.
nickstix91 wrote: I learned counterpoint as a melodic tool. Just recently finished writing a symphonic band piece that I used a lot of counterpoint in. and it's a beautiful thing when you get stuck harmonizing a melody, or even writing a secondary melody.
I'd be interested to hear this piece.
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:06 pm



I'll upload the midi file from sibelius, and pm you the link. I wont leave the file up on mediafire too long because im looking to hopefully have the piece performed and published at some point.
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Randall112 Offline
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:16 pm



I recently took up freelance writing, and just composing for fun. I have to say that I really enjoy it, and I love just writing drumline cadences and also band music.

I like to write in A minor, hehe
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:12 pm



I have a couple of questions. First, what exactly is this counterpoint thing? Second...when writing in a minor key, I know you have such a thing as a melodic minor, where the sixth and the seventh scale degree is raised when ascending, but put back down when descending. Assuming that the sixth or seventh scale degree is used as the root or third of a chord, should I raise it a half step, or just leave it alone?


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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:27 pm



noname wrote:what exactly is this counterpoint thing?
Counterpoint is combining two melodic lines that are different melodically, harmonically, and by contours. If you want to learn more about it buy (or borrow from a library because it costs a bit of money) Counterpoint by Walter Piston. It goes in depth about counterpoint and it includes many exercises that help you use it in your writing. But before you learn counterpoint you should have a good understanding of music theory and harmony.


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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 8:56 pm



AlexSkov wrote:
noname wrote:what exactly is this counterpoint thing?
Counterpoint is combining two melodic lines that are different melodically, harmonically, and by contours. If you want to learn more about it buy (or borrow from a library because it costs a bit of money) Counterpoint by Walter Piston. It goes in depth about counterpoint and it includes many exercises that help you use it in your writing. But before you learn counterpoint you should have a good understanding of music theory and harmony.
I will consider this when the school year is over and I have completed my AP music theory class. Can you point to a few examples of pieces that include this so that I can hear what it sounds like?


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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:27 pm



noname wrote:
AlexSkov wrote:
noname wrote:what exactly is this counterpoint thing?
Counterpoint is combining two melodic lines that are different melodically, harmonically, and by contours. If you want to learn more about it buy (or borrow from a library because it costs a bit of money) Counterpoint by Walter Piston. It goes in depth about counterpoint and it includes many exercises that help you use it in your writing. But before you learn counterpoint you should have a good understanding of music theory and harmony.
I will consider this when the school year is over and I have completed my AP music theory class. Can you point to a few examples of pieces that include this so that I can hear what it sounds like?
Brandenburg Concerto no. 6- J. S. Bach

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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 9:38 pm



noname wrote:I have a couple of questions. First, what exactly is this counterpoint thing? Second...when writing in a minor key, I know you have such a thing as a melodic minor, where the sixth and the seventh scale degree is raised when ascending, but put back down when descending. Assuming that the sixth or seventh scale degree is used as the root or third of a chord, should I raise it a half step, or just leave it alone?
In melodic minor, the sixth and seventh scales degrees are raised only when used as part of a melodic line. The seventh scale degree in minor tonalities is almost universally raised, in common practice music. The sixth scale degree is raised when it precedes the raised seventh so as to avoid an augmented second interval.

More specifically to your question, there is no such thing as writing in "melodic minor". You write in the minor tonality, having the Aeolian mode as the tonic. When utilizing a VI chord in minor tonality, you would use a diatonic VI as the root. When utilizing a iv chord in minor tonality (which has the VI as the third), then you still use a diatonic VI (think about it; raising the VI would make a IV, not a iv. Likewise, raising the root of a sixth chord in minor would result in a #vio, instead of a VI).

For viio6, you would use a raised vii, but not because you're "writing in melodic minor"; the vii is raised to create the semitonal movement from vii to i. This is known as "harmonic minor"; it is distinct from melodic minor in that raising the vii is essential for creating proper resolution. The vii is also raised as part of the V in the minor tonality; if you didn't raise it, you would be utilizing a v instead of a V.

Think of it this way: Harmony is vertical music (chords across voices), and melody is horizontal music (lines in one voice). The raised seventh in harmony is necessary to more powerfully resolve the cadence to i, and therefore is required. In melody, when the raised seventh is preceded by the sixth scale degree, the sixth must be raised to avoid the interval of an augmented second.

In summary: Always raise the seventh scale degree. Do not raise the sixth scale degree unless the melodic line is followed by a raised seventh.

Note: This would be a great question to have asked in the new Music Theory thread!

---

For counterpoint, listen to Bach, lots of Bach, especially his fugues. He was a master of contrapunctal technique. In particular I recommend the Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor, the "Little" Fugue in G Minor, and the Art of Fugue.
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:20 pm



drumer93 wrote:
Captain_Pit wrote:
tdubasdfg wrote:I found out today that I really like Ab Minor
Ha, me too. Well that and Db Minor.
I like E major.
Yeah, I know, I'm kind of emotional.


anyway, how do you guys come up with stuff?
like, how does the writing process begin?
Okay, this talk of keys is getting absolutely ridiculous guys. Eventually everyone will just name them all, and that's all it will have accomplished, STOP IT. You can write anything and make it sound like anything IN ANY KEY. Good golly.

Sitting down at a piano or marimba is a GREAT way to start. Or you can come up with a melody based off of some sort of formula of intervals, note names, whatever. Bach had a [Bb A C B (natural)] melody/motive show up in his pieces. Back then H stood for B natural, since Bb was MUCH more common to use.

This might be spamming, but if you guys would like to hear some of my stuff (I'm a music composition major) then check out my page:

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You can also subscribe on iTunes!
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:23 pm



AWA wrote:
noname wrote:I have a couple of questions. First, what exactly is this counterpoint thing? Second...when writing in a minor key, I know you have such a thing as a melodic minor, where the sixth and the seventh scale degree is raised when ascending, but put back down when descending. Assuming that the sixth or seventh scale degree is used as the root or third of a chord, should I raise it a half step, or just leave it alone?
In melodic minor, the sixth and seventh scales degrees are raised only when used as part of a melodic line. The seventh scale degree in minor tonalities is almost universally raised, in common practice music. The sixth scale degree is raised when it precedes the raised seventh so as to avoid an augmented second interval.

More specifically to your question, there is no such thing as writing in "melodic minor". You write in the minor tonality, having the Aeolian mode as the tonic. When utilizing a VI chord in minor tonality, you would use a diatonic VI as the root. When utilizing a iv chord in minor tonality (which has the VI as the third), then you still use a diatonic VI (think about it; raising the VI would make a IV, not a iv. Likewise, raising the root of a sixth chord in minor would result in a #vio, instead of a VI).

For viio6, you would use a raised vii, but not because you're "writing in melodic minor"; the vii is raised to create the semitonal movement from vii to i. This is known as "harmonic minor"; it is distinct from melodic minor in that raising the vii is essential for creating proper resolution. The vii is also raised as part of the V in the minor tonality; if you didn't raise it, you would be utilizing a v instead of a V.

Think of it this way: Harmony is vertical music (chords across voices), and melody is horizontal music (lines in one voice). The raised seventh in harmony is necessary to more powerfully resolve the cadence to i, and therefore is required. In melody, when the raised seventh is preceded by the sixth scale degree, the sixth must be raised to avoid the interval of an augmented second.

In summary: Always raise the seventh scale degree. Do not raise the sixth scale degree unless the melodic line is followed by a raised seventh.

Note: This would be a great question to have asked in the new Music Theory thread!

---

For counterpoint, listen to Bach, lots of Bach, especially his fugues. He was a master of contrapunctal technique. In particular I recommend the Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor, the "Little" Fugue in G Minor, and the Art of Fugue.
Well well well! This kid has done his homework! :D
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:38 pm



Not percussion.. vocals. I'm arranging the old hymn "Were You There?" for my school's chamber choir.

http://rapidshare.com/files/444061282/W ... _There.wav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Have a look, tell me what you think. It's just the first two verses. If you aren't familiar with the piece then just tell me if you like it or not haha. The first verse is a bass solo and then it goes into full SATB.
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 8:21 am



KBoe5 wrote:Okay, this talk of keys is getting absolutely ridiculous guys. Eventually everyone will just name them all, and that's all it will have accomplished, STOP IT. You can write anything and make it sound like anything IN ANY KEY. Good golly.
This is true in theory. However, when you apply it to each instrument, you find that certain keys can feel very different to the performer and sound very different to the listener. On the marimba, there are certain notes that really speak well in the bass range. I love playing marimba in the key of A minor, with that A below middle C acting as the home base. If you have a 4.6 or 5-octave, you can lead into it from the G or G# below it.

On woodwind instruments, changing the key can dramatically change the type of keys used, altering the flow on the instrument. It also can switch the instrument into another register, drastically changing its timbre and projection. I notice this problem a lot in my church orchestra as we play songs in a wide variety of keys. It really makes it difficult to balance our clarinet, viola, and French horn with the rest of the ensemble.

For singers, the key can be the difference between having to belt or switch into the head voice. Like the marimba, there are certain notes that just sound great in each range. I write a lot of music for children's choir, and the particular notes of D, E, and G, 2 octaves above middle C are key notes for them. Most of their music is written in C, F, or G major for that reason. I often go with G, because it makes it easy to add a recorder or flute.

I would hope that a composition major would know better than to say that all keys basically sound the same. However, I think composers these days haven't played enough instruments and are not aware enough about how keys, range, and technical demands affect the sound of each instrument. Many new compositions that were handed to our ensembles in college did not take these things into consideration, and they were unpleasant to play and to hear.


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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:17 am



You make a very good point dgaking, and it's very true that each instrument has their comfortable keys to play in (such as writing for strings in flat keys wont make the performers too happy).

However, I believe the point that KBoe5 was trying to make is slightly different. I think he was not speaking of the difference of instruments but rather the difference of styles. Kind of like, if you want to write something slow, melodic, and happy...you can do this with any key you desire to use. Same goes for anystyle...Almost any key can work with happy, sad, ballad, fast, melodic, etc.

This also goes with the argument that minor can only be used to write something sad, when in reality if you do it correctly, you can make a minor key sound very pretty and very happy.
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2011 2:03 pm



dgaking wrote:
KBoe5 wrote:Okay, this talk of keys is getting absolutely ridiculous guys. Eventually everyone will just name them all, and that's all it will have accomplished, STOP IT. You can write anything and make it sound like anything IN ANY KEY. Good golly.
This is true in theory. However, when you apply it to each instrument, you find that certain keys can feel very different to the performer and sound very different to the listener. On the marimba, there are certain notes that really speak well in the bass range. I love playing marimba in the key of A minor, with that A below middle C acting as the home base. If you have a 4.6 or 5-octave, you can lead into it from the G or G# below it.

On woodwind instruments, changing the key can dramatically change the type of keys used, altering the flow on the instrument. It also can switch the instrument into another register, drastically changing its timbre and projection. I notice this problem a lot in my church orchestra as we play songs in a wide variety of keys. It really makes it difficult to balance our clarinet, viola, and French horn with the rest of the ensemble.

For singers, the key can be the difference between having to belt or switch into the head voice. Like the marimba, there are certain notes that just sound great in each range. I write a lot of music for children's choir, and the particular notes of D, E, and G, 2 octaves above middle C are key notes for them. Most of their music is written in C, F, or G major for that reason. I often go with G, because it makes it easy to add a recorder or flute.

I would hope that a composition major would know better than to say that all keys basically sound the same. However, I think composers these days haven't played enough instruments and are not aware enough about how keys, range, and technical demands affect the sound of each instrument. Many new compositions that were handed to our ensembles in college did not take these things into consideration, and they were unpleasant to play and to hear.
My apologies. Yes of course as soon as we start specifying what instrument we're writing for, yes, then certain keys sound different due to ranges and tamber. I know my *beep*.

But when keys are just thrown out like they were, that gets a little annoying, sorry :P
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:43 pm



What is the term for when every bass drum is playing a different rhythm at on point in a piece? I remember hearing it once, but I can't remember.


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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:49 pm



pablodurando wrote:What is the term for when every bass drum is playing a different rhythm at on point in a piece? I remember hearing it once, but I can't remember.
Syncopation?
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:53 pm



I'm pretty sure it's not syncopation. It was a latin term that I was tought, but I completely forgot it.


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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:17 pm



Well, it could be different Latin beats that they're playing, but in the description you gave, you're referring to syncopation.
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:23 pm



Could you possibly be referring to counterpoint, a.k.a. contrapunctus?
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:32 pm



pablodurando wrote:What is the term for when every bass drum is playing a different rhythm at on point in a piece? I remember hearing it once, but I can't remember.
When members of the same section are playing independent parts, the part is said to be divisi (that is, divided between the players). The trick here is that technically the split part in bass drum music lends itself to automatically being classified as divisi. If each individual player is performing an independent line (that is, not dependent on any other player), then I would say that you have a divisi situation.

Syncopation is when accented notes are placed on unaccented beats.

Contrapunctus is when rhythmic lines are played against each other. While this could technically apply, I think that divisi is more accurate to the question.
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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:27 pm



Thanks, I see that my initial post was poorly worded, but I think thats divisi is right. I'm currently writing a piece and I want to you different bass drum parts to create a groove in the beginning. Thanks


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Re: Composition Discussion Thread

Posted: Sun May 15, 2011 3:05 pm



Modes and what not is how I compose stuff, occasionally the pentatontic scale if I'm feeling lazy
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